do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities

[alien]

do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities ...alongside with practising dharma to gain enlightenment..pls advice ...thank you....blur blur...

[Crazywisdom]

I remember a talk where Rinpoche was talking about house gods and deities ( i think in the Chinese tradition) and he said it was ok to make offerings to them and respect them but not to seek refuge in them or worship them. I would not keep them on your Buddhist altar.

Respect all, follow one, is another of his teachings so i don't know how this would relate to a mix of two faiths, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be able to tell you.

Jon

[wmw111]

If we have taken refuge with the three jewels Buddha , Dharma and Sangha, one of the refuge commitments is that we do not take refuge in worldly gods or beings. Though it may be ok to make 'friends' with them as me might be staying in their area but we do not rely on them as objects of refuge .

Worldly beings do have powers that can help us , but a lot of them are still limited and may be able to benefit us short tern and not long term, and some may even help us so we can be hooked in by them .  So I am not certain the references  or the names of the deities but in general and what is constitutes good or bad . However this was adviced to us by His Eminence.   

Chinese people in Malaysia we have ancestral tablets and altars to land gods , does does not mean we ask  people in our family to stop making offerings to those , we need to be skillful to share knowledge with them especially if they have taken refuge.

[alien]

'he said it was ok to make offerings to them and respect them but not to seek refuge in them or worship them',

your sentence above very blur blur.....make offerings to them but not worship them??? wat you talking...very contradictory....you make my head spinning....most of them chinese in their house have pray to their ancestral tablet and taoist deities in china and so on....it is a tradition.....a tradition and culture would you ask them to change???very hard indeed.....in my opinion when we also pray to buddha and taoist deities....buddha is the highest beings...so they will tell the smaller deities to behave...and thus we shouldnt be worry too much to pray to taoist deities and follow toaism teaching....i saw in website taoism and buddhism is closely related thats why many chinese mix up with taoism worship and buddhism worship.....i think it is ok to worship ..when we go to chinese temple....kuan yin and other chinese deities like taoist deities also put in the same altar.....they mix up...thats why many chinese at home also mix up... follow wat the temple do.......

[Zenji]

'he said it was ok to make offerings to them and respect them but not to seek refuge in them or worship them',

your sentence above very blur blur.....make offerings to them but not worship them??? wat you talking...very contradictory....you make my head spinning....most of them chinese in their house have pray to their ancestral tablet and taoist deities in china and so on....it is a tradition.....a tradition and culture would you ask them to change???very hard indeed.....in my opinion when we also pray to buddha and taoist deities....buddha is the highest beings...so they will tell the smaller deities to behave...and thus we shouldnt be worry too much to pray to taoist deities and follow toaism teaching....i saw in website taoism and buddhism is closely related thats why many chinese mix up with taoism worship and buddhism worship.....i think it is ok to worship ..when we go to chinese temple....kuan yin and other chinese deities like taoist deities also put in the same altar.....they mix up...thats why many chinese at home also mix up... follow wat the temple do.......

If I may, from my most limited knowledge:

The Tao (or Dao, however you want to spell it) is a vehicle  for enlightenment, however the way to get there is merely through recognition of "the ineffable tao", wu-wei, acting in accordance with the tao, etc.  Essentially, to discover your "true nature" is what would be considered "enlightenment" (or P'u) from a taoist perspective.  To borrow a quote "The more you seek the tao, the further you are from it."

In the Buddhist mode of thought, there is great work that must occur if we hope to achieve enlightenment, and possibly rebirth in the human or higher realms.  There are meditations, pujas, mantras, initiations, preliminaries, etc.  Every day that we practice,  it brings us closer to enlightenment, provided we practice with right motivation.

To me, it seems like a bit of a contradiction to place taoist beings on the same altar as Buddhist deities/lamas.  Each represents what the opposite is trying to counteract.

I'm not suggesting that as a Buddhist you should not respect and offer things to these beings, but on the Buddhist path, these beings cannot and will not bring you to Buddhist enlightenment.  The Tao may help you realize your true nature, but it's what you do with your true nature which really matters, and how you cultivate that is through the teachings of the Buddha and how you apply it to the world around you.

[Joey]

'he said it was ok to make offerings to them and respect them but not to seek refuge in them or worship them',

your sentence above very blur blur.....make offerings to them but not worship them??? wat you talking...very contradictory....you make my head spinning....most of them chinese in their house have pray to their ancestral tablet and taoist deities in china and so on....it is a tradition.....a tradition and culture would you ask them to change???very hard indeed.....in my opinion when we also pray to buddha and taoist deities....buddha is the highest beings...so they will tell the smaller deities to behave...and thus we shouldnt be worry too much to pray to taoist deities and follow toaism teaching....i saw in website taoism and buddhism is closely related thats why many chinese mix up with taoism worship and buddhism worship.....i think it is ok to worship ..when we go to chinese temple....kuan yin and other chinese deities like taoist deities also put in the same altar.....they mix up...thats why many chinese at home also mix up... follow wat the temple do.......

If I may, from my most limited knowledge:

The Tao (or Dao, however you want to spell it) is a vehicle  for enlightenment, however the way to get there is merely through recognition of "the ineffable tao", wu-wei, acting in accordance with the tao, etc.  Essentially, to discover your "true nature" is what would be considered "enlightenment" (or P'u) from a taoist perspective.  To borrow a quote "The more you seek the tao, the further you are from it."

In the Buddhist mode of thought, there is great work that must occur if we hope to achieve enlightenment, and possibly rebirth in the human or higher realms.  There are meditations, pujas, mantras, initiations, preliminaries, etc.  Every day that we practice,  it brings us closer to enlightenment, provided we practice with right motivation.

To me, it seems like a bit of a contradiction to place taoist beings on the same altar as Buddhist deities/lamas.  Each represents what the opposite is trying to counteract.

I'm not suggesting that as a Buddhist you should not respect and offer things to these beings, but on the Buddhist path, these beings cannot and will not bring you to Buddhist enlightenment.  The Tao may help you realize your true nature, but it's what you do with your true nature which really matters, and how you cultivate that is through the teachings of the Buddha and how you apply it to the world around you.

first of all,

alien & zenji: making offerings does not equal to respect or taking refuge under them. Taking refuge under them means that you literally trust that they will protect you from harm. So you can give them food and incense as a gift or tribute but cannot ask them for "help". Taking refuge means that in a way, you see the Buddhas as your parents and does it make sense that instead of your parents, you ask people who are just a few years older than you to take care of you unconditionally and that you can stay with them etc? (no, not talking about love couples).  So, seeking those gods and praying to them as if they were the most powerful being that can help you all the way would be just like running away from home and seeking people a few years older than you and staying with them and expecting them to be your parents. They cant do it forever and they may chase you out or ask for a return sooner or later. It does not make sense.

zenji: no. Tao is NOT the road to enlightenment. It has too many similarities to Bon and Hinduism. The translation for Tao does mean the way, but er no. As a Buddhist who have taken refuge we should not seek methods to prolong our lives, develop supernormal powers, control supernatural forces and the like that Tao advocates as they are a complete waste of time. Secondly, by saying that Tao shows you your true nature, you indirectly undermine Buddhism that it cannot help you see your true nature, so you turn to something else. You can study it academically but to get involved is a different story.

If you have taken refuge and you have deities etc they should always be placed lower than Buddha statues. You can  make offerings to them but visiting mediums and asking your fortune to be told is a different matter and should not be practiced because you again, undermine the Dharma.

One of the refuge vows is NOT to seek refuge in worldly gods. You can pay your respects but not worship them. the end.

[Zenji]

first of all,

alien & zenji: making offerings does not equal to respect or taking refuge under them. Taking refuge under them means that you literally trust that they will protect you from harm. So you can give them food and incense as a gift or tribute but cannot ask them for "help". Taking refuge means that in a way, you see the Buddhas as your parents and does it make sense that instead of your parents, you ask people who are just a few years older than you to take care of you unconditionally and that you can stay with them etc? (no, not talking about love couples).  So, seeking those gods and praying to them as if they were the most powerful being that can help you all the way would be just like running away from home and seeking people a few years older than you and staying with them and expecting them to be your parents. They cant do it forever and they may chase you out or ask for a return sooner or later. It does not make sense.

zenji: no. Tao is NOT the road to enlightenment. It has too many similarities to Bon and Hinduism. The translation for Tao does mean the way, but er no. As a Buddhist who have taken refuge we should not seek methods to prolong our lives, develop supernormal powers, control supernatural forces and the like that Tao advocates as they are a complete waste of time. Secondly, by saying that Tao shows you your true nature, you indirectly undermine Buddhism that it cannot help you see your true nature, so you turn to something else. You can study it academically but to get involved is a different story.

If you have taken refuge and you have deities etc they should always be placed lower than Buddha statues. You can  make offerings to them but visiting mediums and asking your fortune to be told is a different matter and should not be practiced because you again, undermine the Dharma.

One of the refuge vows is NOT to seek refuge in worldly gods. You can pay your respects but not worship them. the end.

Joey,

I feel it necessary to point out that nowhere in my post did I mention anything regarding the esoteric practices of Taoism.  To me, as I have read the Tao and is what initially spurred me to the dharma path, I find no explicit mention of mystical practices, rituals, divinations, or what have you.  It is an excellent guide to help us realize who we are fundamentally if we take it as such.  If one decides to go down the path of Taoist mysticism and wrap themselves up in their practices, then yes, I fully agree with you that it is not enlightenment and is breaking the vow to not take refuge in "worldly gods".

What I mentioned about P'u was just a transposition of terms.  If a pure Buddhist were in the land of the Tao, and a Tao master said "P'u", the Buddhist would have no idea what that means.  The easiest translation would be "enlightenment" (note the quotations), even though in the Buddhist thought, enlightenment is a much larger, grander picture.  I'm sorry if this offended you.

It seems to me we're arguing the same point (while yes, it is okay to make offerings and respect these beings, but not to take refuge, or depend on them to create change in us), however something got lost in translation.  Hopefully next time I will be able to make myself more clearly understood.

[Joey]

first of all,

alien & zenji: making offerings does not equal to respect or taking refuge under them. Taking refuge under them means that you literally trust that they will protect you from harm. So you can give them food and incense as a gift or tribute but cannot ask them for "help". Taking refuge means that in a way, you see the Buddhas as your parents and does it make sense that instead of your parents, you ask people who are just a few years older than you to take care of you unconditionally and that you can stay with them etc? (no, not talking about love couples).  So, seeking those gods and praying to them as if they were the most powerful being that can help you all the way would be just like running away from home and seeking people a few years older than you and staying with them and expecting them to be your parents. They cant do it forever and they may chase you out or ask for a return sooner or later. It does not make sense.

zenji: no. Tao is NOT the road to enlightenment. It has too many similarities to Bon and Hinduism. The translation for Tao does mean the way, but er no. As a Buddhist who have taken refuge we should not seek methods to prolong our lives, develop supernormal powers, control supernatural forces and the like that Tao advocates as they are a complete waste of time. Secondly, by saying that Tao shows you your true nature, you indirectly undermine Buddhism that it cannot help you see your true nature, so you turn to something else. You can study it academically but to get involved is a different story.

If you have taken refuge and you have deities etc they should always be placed lower than Buddha statues. You can  make offerings to them but visiting mediums and asking your fortune to be told is a different matter and should not be practiced because you again, undermine the Dharma.

One of the refuge vows is NOT to seek refuge in worldly gods. You can pay your respects but not worship them. the end.

Joey,

I feel it necessary to point out that nowhere in my post did I mention anything regarding the esoteric practices of Taoism.  To me, as I have read the Tao and is what initially spurred me to the dharma path, I find no explicit mention of mystical practices, rituals, divinations, or what have you.  It is an excellent guide to help us realize who we are fundamentally if we take it as such.  If one decides to go down the path of Taoist mysticism and wrap themselves up in their practices, then yes, I fully agree with you that it is not enlightenment and is breaking the vow to not take refuge in "worldly gods".

What I mentioned about P'u was just a transposition of terms.  If a pure Buddhist were in the land of the Tao, and a Tao master said "P'u", the Buddhist would have no idea what that means.  The easiest translation would be "enlightenment" (note the quotations), even though in the Buddhist thought, enlightenment is a much larger, grander picture.  I'm sorry if this offended you.

It seems to me we're arguing the same point (while yes, it is okay to make offerings and respect these beings, but not to take refuge, or depend on them to create change in us), however something got lost in translation.  Hopefully next time I will be able to make myself more clearly understood.

the goals in Tao, although not specifically stated in Tao Te Ching, is to attain immortality aka be a worldly God. I think that says a  lot about that. Being Chinese i do have a good idea of what it entails.

[alien]

you cant tell the chinese not to worship these beings as it is in the chinese temples for thousands of years taoism and buddhism.....even when the do business they also worship land god like 'dato kong' to bless them.....bless them does not meant they do not have to do anything..they still havce to work hard.....after i read your comment about taoism and buddhism....taoism is also teach people do good...when you read in the website...taoist deities also listen to dharma teachings and eventually they become buddha some of them....taoism in china is the fundamental teaching of filiel piety by confucius ..i think so forget them founder of taoism..... when you read some buddhist book....especially originated from china......they stress on the teaching of taoism which is closely related to buddhism or some of the chinese book say taoism is the fundamental teaching of buddhism.....taoism the highest gods or being is call the Three Pure One....Pure means they are Pure.......enlightenment is good but nowadays people have to work and make a living....they are too busy to think of enlightennment become a buddha and end suffering...no time.....blur blur....

[ysng101]

if we look at the subject title ,  the key word being "pray" ,   as meaning offering incense and joss sticks ( my chinese way of understanding it ) ,   then   of course , buddhists can "pray" to taoist deities. It is an offering of incense.   Even while "praying" if  in our hearts we still chant "Namo Guru Beh" , Namo Buddha Ya, Namo Dharma Ya, Namo Sangha Ya.  We are still taking refuge in the Buddha , Dharma and Sangha.   I don't think people will go Namo "Taoist Deity Name" .   

However , if we go "praying" to the Taoist Deity everyday and ask for "favours" everytime,  then, it's like taking refuge in the deities , even though one may not realise it.  Because when we take refuge in the Buddha , Dharma and Sangha,  we are reafirming our commitment to the study of Dharma, the practice of Dharma  which will in turn change our way of life and thinking , to be better happier people so that we won't need to ask for "favours" from other sources everytime. 

This is purely my thinking, I may be wrong.  But as Rinpoche has mentioned many many many times. Respect ALL traditions and Criticize NONE !    Please do not think I'm saying anything negative about your practices.

[Joey]

you cant tell the chinese not to worship these beings as it is in the chinese temples for thousands of years taoism and buddhism.....even when the do business they also worship land god like 'dato kong' to bless them.....bless them does not meant they do not have to do anything..they still havce to work hard.....after i read your comment about taoism and buddhism....taoism is also teach people do good...when you read in the website...taoist deities also listen to dharma teachings and eventually they become buddha some of them....taoism in china is the fundamental teaching of filiel piety by confucius ..i think so forget them founder of taoism..... when you read some buddhist book....especially originated from china......they stress on the teaching of taoism which is closely related to buddhism or some of the chinese book say taoism is the fundamental teaching of buddhism.....taoism the highest gods or being is call the Three Pure One....Pure means they are Pure.......enlightenment is good but nowadays people have to work and make a living....they are too busy to think of enlightennment become a buddha and end suffering...no time.....blur blur....

they're pure but still within Samsara's grasp. Anyway if you have not taken refuge nothing wrong with praying to them. But you will break your refuge vows if you pray to them like you did before.

none of the taoist gods became buddhas.

fillial piety is started by Confucius but he is not taoist. He has his own school of thought.  It's not related to taoism.

There were evidence that taoism plagarized Buddhist material, as did Hinduism and Bon and it is not suprising they did that to gain the support of Buddhists they said that. But again, the goals differ. The taoist definition of enlightenment is to be a long life god.

Pabongkha Rinpoche's comments on this, note that Bon is Tao:

We have taken refuge in our Teacher and are disciples of his teachings; we have taken this refuge for good and cannot exchange it for some other refuge. The dharmas of Boenpos, tirthikas, and so forth are non-Buddhist and should not be taken as our refuge. There is a difference in superiority between Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachers, their teachings, and their disciples. (p. 371)

Here in Tibet there are no true tirthikas, but there are some big mouths who claim to be practitioners and scholars yet see nothing wrong in dabbling in Boen or barbarian dharma to curry favor with others, gain a big following, or help themselves out when they meet with difficulties. By taking two refuges, they have evicted [the act of] taking refuge from their mind streams and cast themselves out of the ranks of Buddhists. (p. 372)

meaning that, once you pray to taoist gods for protection, you are no longer Buddhist.
 

[Joey]

[alien]

i dun think all the buddhas..guan yin...buddha amitabha  in buddhism will not help us to gain enlightenment once we worship these taoist deities...all chinese did that...it is a matter of individual....what vows we are talking here....we are living in samsara world....you go to thailand they also pray to deities...thailand also a buddhist country....as someone says...respect one faith.....they all do good..not evil......chinese worship guan yin ..amithaba....and taoist deities...would you think they are bad...i dun think so...good or evil is about cause and effect...it has nothing to do with taoism and buddhism....it has been thousands years they worship taoism and buddhism.....buddha is merciful....they will allow chinese to do that...you go to chinese temples they do that..chinese home also worship them....in their premise they also do that....would you now tell them to ged rid of all these taoist deities????they are do you think they will listen to you????it has been part of the chinese culture...everywhere they go....they pay respect to them...chinese new year...they also pay respect to them...they worship jade emperor.....etc...but talking about enlightenment....i am sure they are different method to gain buddhahood as it is very strict.....like tibetan buddhism....all taoist deities fight demons and evils...are they bad?? i dun think so......if they are..why would the taoist ask the chinese to pray in the first place?.wether taoism copy buddhism or not.....we are not expert...it is just a hearsay.....of course to gain enlightenment it is another matter....enlightenment is good...but how many can achieve them...everyone want to end suffering if given a chance....i dun think just because chinese worship taoist deities they will not gain enlightenment.....they are many ways to achieve it....for example tibetan buddhism..to take vows not to worship taoist deities is their rules to achieve buddhahood in this life time or the next???i have seen many of the tibetan buddhism worshipping...all of them worship buddhas..wether for wealth or protection....just like the taoism religion....if we combine tibetan buddhism and taoism deities pray along side..would you think it is much better???the more the better...the less is worse....we can practice tibetan buddhism at the sametime and taoism at the same time...to look at both sides to gain much better insight..........

[alien]

and another thing... i dun think just a matter worshipping taoist deities ...buddha amitabha will not receive us to pureland....or tibetan buddhism buddhas will not receive us to their pureland.......if you look into the chinese text originated from china.....taoism and buddhism is closely related...they teach people to do good....thats why guan yin appear in puto mountain and many legend of taoist deities there....buddha amithaba also there.....it is just another way of gaining enlightenment.....or reaching there......

[jyhopester]

I would like to say, most of the practices that you can see, praying to deities in temples as well as most of the Chinese families cannot be catogorised in neither Buddhism nor Taoism.
Taoism was philosophy at the first place. But it then being transformed into a form of religion. They have their specific 3 main deities and teachings. I don't know about it in this case.
In Buddhism, we believe in realms. Hence, these deities which they believe in may be in the god realm or ghost realm. They are also beings who have notgain enlightenment. Although they have certain abilities which we don't have, but it doesn't mean that they are worth to believe in. They don't teach dharma. They don't show you the way to enlightenment. They themselves are also suffering in samsara. One day when their merits exhausted, they still need to be reborn.
The six realms.... i think you know.

Alien: you are right, guanyin, amitabha buddha will still accept you to their purelands even you pray to the deities. But how sure are you that you are qualified to be there? Have you already become a person who does only good deeds, avoid all evils and purified your mind?
are you free from greed, delusion and anger?
If not, why wasting your time praying to these deities? They can't bring you to anywhere!
Benefit all the time that you have and life according to the dharma is of utmost importance. Hold your percepts well. Transform you mind.
Buddhism is not just about praying, it's about transformation.
furthermore, a quote for you: jack of all trades, master of none.
If you can't even perform your very best in a religion, why should you involve in others?

willing to have a discussion with you alien, my address: [email protected]