do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities

[alien]

no need to discuss with you.....you are not master too....wasting my time...

[Joey]

i dun think all the buddhas..guan yin...buddha amitabha  in buddhism will not help us to gain enlightenment once we worship these taoist deities...all chinese did that...it is a matter of individual....what vows we are talking here....we are living in samsara world....you go to thailand they also pray to deities...thailand also a buddhist country....as someone says...respect one faith.....they all do good..not evil......chinese worship guan yin ..amithaba....and taoist deities...would you think they are bad...i dun think so...good or evil is about cause and effect...it has nothing to do with taoism and buddhism....it has been thousands years they worship taoism and buddhism.....buddha is merciful....they will allow chinese to do that...you go to chinese temples they do that..chinese home also worship them....in their premise they also do that....would you now tell them to ged rid of all these taoist deities????they are do you think they will listen to you????it has been part of the chinese culture...everywhere they go....they pay respect to them...chinese new year...they also pay respect to them...they worship jade emperor.....etc...but talking about enlightenment....i am sure they are different method to gain buddhahood as it is very strict.....like tibetan buddhism....all taoist deities fight demons and evils...are they bad?? i dun think so......if they are..why would the taoist ask the chinese to pray in the first place?.wether taoism copy buddhism or not.....we are not expert...it is just a hearsay.....of course to gain enlightenment it is another matter....enlightenment is good...but how many can achieve them...everyone want to end suffering if given a chance....i dun think just because chinese worship taoist deities they will not gain enlightenment.....they are many ways to achieve it....for example tibetan buddhism..to take vows not to worship taoist deities is their rules to achieve buddhahood in this life time or the next???i have seen many of the tibetan buddhism worshipping...all of them worship buddhas..wether for wealth or protection....just like the taoism religion....if we combine tibetan buddhism and taoism deities pray along side..would you think it is much better???the more the better...the less is worse....we can practice tibetan buddhism at the sametime and taoism at the same time...to look at both sides to gain much better insight..........

like i said taoism is not bad but if u mix them up with Buddhism that is bad. you cannot mix them. you can only choose one. nobody ask the ppl in china to throw away their taoist gods. people have the right to choose. and they can only choose if they mix it's their problem because they dont know any better.

buddhas and taoist gods are different. I will not want to go into the details since you're not listening.

if you want to combine it is up to you but i'll follow Pabongkha Rinpoche's instructions, thank you.

[Joey]

and another thing... i dun think just a matter worshipping taoist deities ...buddha amitabha will not receive us to pureland....or tibetan buddhism buddhas will not receive us to their pureland.......if you look into the chinese text originated from china.....taoism and buddhism is closely related...they teach people to do good....thats why guan yin appear in puto mountain and many legend of taoist deities there....buddha amithaba also there.....it is just another way of gaining enlightenment.....or reaching there......

nope its different. please read what i wrote.

if u think u can win by insisting your point, you're wrong. does not work on me.

taoism and Buddhism is not closely related. if u want to believe that it is so, go ahead and dont try to convince us.

[jyhopester]

let's practise dharma.
be a better person rather than just winning meaningless debates.
Debates are meant to create awareness and growth in spirituality.

May all sentient beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.
May all sentient beings get happiness and the causes of happiness.
May us all live according to the dharma.
May the Triple Gems bless, protect and guide us.
Transform.

[Joey]

let's practise dharma.
be a better person rather than just winning meaningless debates.
Debates are meant to create awareness and growth in spirituality.

May all sentient beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.
May all sentient beings get happiness and the causes of happiness.
May us all live according to the dharma.
May the Triple Gems bless, protect and guide us.
Transform.

may look meaningless to some people but this debate may help many more in the future. that is why its important to clear doubts.

[alien]

what i mean taoism and buddhism is closely related is some of the taoist deities like guan gong is a dharma protector for buddhism choose by buddhas in one of the books i read.....taoism and buddhism is two different philosophy.buddhism is the highest...i think.....because everybody knows it...example...tibetan buddhism has a clear guide and rules to enlightenment...tibetan buddhism worship only buddhas.......but taoist deities is also from heaven....they are subordinates of jade emperor.......they carried the duty to inspect human deeds and misdeeds on earth...would you think they are bad??i dun think so....thats why many chinese worship them even get into their culture for thousands of years......in chinese books ....the chinese emperor honours many of these deities and it was send by heaven to teach mankind to do good....thats why chinese worship them for protection...wealth and so on........if you want to become enlightenment.....they are many methods and teaching...like the city of ten thousand buddhas founded by master hsuan hua.....i dont think master hsuan hua practice tibetan buddhism to gain enlightenment......they are many ways to do it......

[jyhopester]

firstly, no body said that these deities are bad.
it's good to give them offerings just like giving presents to people whom we respect.
but they aren't beings whom we should take refuge in.
clear?

[jyhopester]

what i mean taoism and buddhism is closely related is some of the taoist deities like guan gong is a dharma protector for buddhism choose by buddhas in one of the books i read.....taoism and buddhism is two different philosophy.buddhism is the highest...i think.....because everybody knows it...example...tibetan buddhism has a clear guide and rules to enlightenment...tibetan buddhism worship only buddhas.......but taoist deities is also from heaven....they are subordinates of jade emperor.......they carried the duty to inspect human deeds and misdeeds on earth...would you think they are bad??i dun think so....thats why many chinese worship them even get into their culture for thousands of years......in chinese books ....the chinese emperor honours many of these deities and it was send by heaven to teach mankind to do good....thats why chinese worship them for protection...wealth and so on........if you want to become enlightenment.....they are many methods and teaching...like the city of ten thousand buddhas founded by master hsuan hua.....i dont think master hsuan hua practice tibetan buddhism to gain enlightenment......they are many ways to do it......

so what's ur point here?
being a buddhist and yet praying to taoist deities? spending ur time pleasing them to fulfill ur desires? giving you health and wealth?
if you really want to gain enlightenment, why don't you put dharma into practice now?
a question: why should you pray to these deities? what is the purpose of doing so?

[alien]

you ask the majority chinese to stop praying to these taoist deities  or chinese deities like  ' kuan Kong' .....i think they will slap you right in front your face....you small boy jyhopester......it is their preference to do so to pray to these chinese deities...praying to receive wealth and health you think very easy ??if you dont go and work everyday do you think money will come to you by just praying to buddhas or deities....maybe you can hit jackpot by dreaming everyday....i think you should stop debating in this forum because you are inexperience and not qualify to do so.....Pls dun teach me about dharma and buddhism ...you are not qualify....jyhopester....end......

[jyhopester]

I am not asking all Chinese to stop praying to these deities. But to learnt buddhists, i think we should.
and by the way, it's all up to you and that is just my point of view. I am not forcing you to do anything.
praying to them will not guarantee you any health nor wealth too.
what's ur main aim of praying? to get sumthing in return? i bet most of those chinese out there are.
I am not teaching you any dharma, but just sharing my point of view.
I may not qualify to teach anybody.
I am still a learner and so as you are.
If I had brought you any sadness or anger, please take my apologies.
But it seems like you need to put in effort in cutting off ur anger, greed and delusion.
putting other people down is not making you any greater.
and another thing, I am here to learn, not to debate.
you can choose not to read my posts, but not to stop me from posting. for your info, it's called human right.

I recommend you to read up some of Rinpoche's articles here: www.tsemtulku.com

May us attain Buddhahood.

[jyhopester]

and ya, another thing, you haven't answer my question.
why should you pray to these deities? what is the purpose of doing so?
those Chinese pray to these deities because they are not learnt buddhists, but I bet you are one.

[alien]

i think you still dun understand my point ...small boy jyhopester......you can practice your buddhism....i can practice mine.....dun interfere and criticize people preference what they should pray for because buddha is the highest beings....buddhism is flexible....only the human is not flexible like you......buddhism is good religion but the bad is the human.....human is selfish....even in national politics....which is suppose to help people.....they go on to garner support and make them powerful sitting in the official position....they twist and cover up certain things to gain political support...economics is the same......China is once a communist country are they rich in the past...they are poor....majority of chinese is buddhist....The Chinese government in the past always wage war with each other and it is the people who suffer...no matter what they pray...buddhas and deities also cannot help them..it is human deeds not buddhas and gods....we are living in the mortal world not immortal.....War is a War make people suffer and many die.....and many of them do not have religion either.....to become rich is a human effort....not by always dreaming praying to get wealth.....the chinese culture is influence by buddhism and taoism and it mix up....if you think ask the muslim not to pray to their Gods do you think they will listen to you????it is the same thing like chinese gods and deities...until tibetan buddhism appears and it spread to many countries......i think other countries also has enlighten beings which has attain nirvana like master hua and master hsuan hua in the city of ten thousand buddhas.....everybody can still practice dharma even if they practice to pray to chinese deities...you go to chinese temples they have dharma protector too...what is the dharma protector in this case??protector is the deities who protect dharma teachings..dharma teaching in this case is founded by buddhas....dont get people wrong.....and please... i dun  like to debate with people who are not enlightened.....

[Hot Spot]

How interesting to read all the post on this discussion.

What is our definition of pray or worship?

What is enlightenment? Is it a place you go to?

Nobody should tell anybody to abandon anything they feel comfortable with.

As Buddhist, the objective is not to convert another to become a buddhist.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama has a huge following worldwide including the West.  He specifically tells the Western people not to convert as it may be confusing to them but adopting the buddhist teachings and applying them in their daily lives is fine.

But once, one learnt more about buddhism, and at a stage where one takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, one should understand that it is wrong to also take refuge in worldy gods.  But since if one has previously propitiated to them and has asked favours of them, being buddhist now, we say, you don't abandon your "old friends" and throw everything out! You make them offerings as an appeasement but as a spiritual practice.  But if one is still think of propitiating to worldly gods after being a buddhist, one is not really practising buddhism or not understanding the teachings of buddha well.

One should also understand the practice of making offerings in Buddhism - why we make it and what it entails (it should include the 6 Paramitas (or Perfection) of Generosity, Discipline, Patience, Effort, Meditation and Wisdom). 

We should read a lot and contemplate a lot on the buddhist text and on talks we attend so we can understand what is making us suffer, what is making us so agitated and what is making us so attached to the idea that we must be right and everybody else is wrong.  What make us control our tongues and make us have good speech, clear speech, gentle speech.

If we examine ourselves properly, we find the main culprit for making us suffer is none other than "IGNORANCE'.

Every religion teaches us to be kind hearted and this is what we should adopt, principally.  We must be brave enough to raise question some practices within any religion so we can have a better understanding of the practice.  We must not practice out of FEAR.  For Buddha never say, accept my teachings blindly. He asked us to test it and find out for ourselves its relevance.  Buddhism is not practiced based on fear or superstition.  Or only on certain days, certain things only can be done to the altar.  Also, one can make any kind of offerings on the Buddhist altar but with certain local deities, if one offer the wrong 'things' one can get into 'trouble" with the local deities.

At the end of the day, the practice is from one's side not the side of the Buddha.  If we have good motivation, have compassion we are on the right track to enlightenment. 

[jyhopester]

good post.
Well to a certain extent I had lost my temper earlier.
I think Buddhism is a great religion which none of us can really define it.
For the ignorance part, i totally agree.
There's no right or wrong, just difference.

Thanks alien to let me think deeper and let me thought of the 8 verses of mind transformation.
I should work harder in transforming my mind and put in more effort to practise dharma.

I confess all the faults that I've made and may us all attain enlightenment soon.

[alien]

Which local deities are you talking about, Hot Spot??? Let us discuss about Local Deities now......in the processs of discussions of this deities..we should always show respects to them because they are higher than us and have achieve certain degree of enlightenment and live in heaven and do not offend them because they too have mercy and protect and bless human....i list some of them below:

1.Zhao Gong Ming ( Heavenly General who Help Humans and eventually cultivated as monk when he is a human and Confered by Heaven to become Wealth Deities from Taoism Text) worship by many chinese people in China.
2.Kuan Kong ( Dharma Protector Buddhism according from Chinese Text )
3.Four Face Buddhas ( A Supreme God who create the Universe and Bless Human )
4.Land Deities or Gods.

All of them help human.