do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities

[Joey]

Which local deities are you talking about, Hot Spot??? Let us discuss about Local Deities now......in the processs of discussions of this deities..we should always show respects to them because they are higher than us and have achieve certain degree of enlightenment and live in heaven and do not offend them because they too have mercy and protect and bless human....i list some of them below:

1.Zhao Gong Ming ( Heavenly General who Help Humans and eventually cultivated as monk when he is a human and Confered by Heaven to become Wealth Deities from Taoism Text) worship by many chinese people in China.
2.Kuan Kong ( Dharma Protector Buddhism according from Chinese Text )
3.Four Face Buddhas ( A Supreme God who create the Universe and Bless Human )
4.Land Deities or Gods.

All of them help human.

then good for them, good for you but dont mix them with the likes of the enlightened ones. thats all.

It is fine if you just pray to them but if you really want to walk the path of the Buddha, that is not what the Buddha taught, nor what he did. He taught that they too are not free from Samsara and therefore subjected to suffering, and so those who are serious in their Dharma practice (i.e taken refuge) should not pray to them.

If you just want to pray to the Buddhas for money or wealth or anything for this life, go ahead. nobody is stopping you. But dont take refuge as it will cause you to have bad karma.

Master Hsuan Hua has never prayed or taken refuge in any taoist deity. Please do not slander him. the 4 heavenly kings are not from taoism, they are from india. they were just adopted by taoism. so is the jade emperor. his indian name is Sakra/Indra. Go say hi to him at the indian temple too

there are 10,000 Dharma doors, but none of them involve praying to deities, or following taoism. If they did, Master Hsuan Hua would have done so. But he only studied the Shuragama Sutra.

Also, after praying to taoist deities and you get your wealth or whatever that you ask from them, you will have to return the favor to them, whether or not you or they like it even though they have good intentions to help you, because they are still in Samsara and so are you. Problem is, can you bear it when it is time for you to pay back whatever you took from them?

lastly, alien, please mind your language and attitude. please be polite when posting and keep an open mind. jyhoepster may be younger than you, but in terms of Dharma he is better as he actually reads and not try to repeat the point to win. Because it never works. If you have nothing else to say other than to insist that it is okay for Buddhists to pray to taoist deities, there is simply no point.

[Joey]

How interesting to read all the post on this discussion.

What is our definition of pray or worship?

What is enlightenment? Is it a place you go to?

Nobody should tell anybody to abandon anything they feel comfortable with.

As Buddhist, the objective is not to convert another to become a buddhist.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama has a huge following worldwide including the West.  He specifically tells the Western people not to convert as it may be confusing to them but adopting the buddhist teachings and applying them in their daily lives is fine.

But once, one learnt more about buddhism, and at a stage where one takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, one should understand that it is wrong to also take refuge in worldy gods.  But since if one has previously propitiated to them and has asked favours of them, being buddhist now, we say, you don't abandon your "old friends" and throw everything out! You make them offerings as an appeasement but as a spiritual practice.  But if one is still think of propitiating to worldly gods after being a buddhist, one is not really practising buddhism or not understanding the teachings of buddha well.

One should also understand the practice of making offerings in Buddhism - why we make it and what it entails (it should include the 6 Paramitas (or Perfection) of Generosity, Discipline, Patience, Effort, Meditation and Wisdom). 

We should read a lot and contemplate a lot on the buddhist text and on talks we attend so we can understand what is making us suffer, what is making us so agitated and what is making us so attached to the idea that we must be right and everybody else is wrong.  What make us control our tongues and make us have good speech, clear speech, gentle speech.

If we examine ourselves properly, we find the main culprit for making us suffer is none other than "IGNORANCE'.

Every religion teaches us to be kind hearted and this is what we should adopt, principally.  We must be brave enough to raise question some practices within any religion so we can have a better understanding of the practice.  We must not practice out of FEAR.  For Buddha never say, accept my teachings blindly. He asked us to test it and find out for ourselves its relevance.  Buddhism is not practiced based on fear or superstition.  Or only on certain days, certain things only can be done to the altar.  Also, one can make any kind of offerings on the Buddhist altar but with certain local deities, if one offer the wrong 'things' one can get into 'trouble" with the local deities.

At the end of the day, the practice is from one's side not the side of the Buddha.  If we have good motivation, have compassion we are on the right track to enlightenment. 

that sums it up nicely thank you.

But there are several things to consider as well:

the thread states if one can still pray to such deities for protection if one has taken refuge, which would be false as this breaks the refuge vows. this also generates bad karma for the deities themselves as well, so although on a superficial level it is okay for these people to pray to those deities after taking refuge if no one explains to them, or simply they are unable to let go or change their beliefs, the hidden repercussions are not something that is light. But if someone asks and we try to explain and that person still continues to do so, we have already done our part. I'd rather let everyone see the full picture and not hide what really goes on.

If for the sake of gentle speech one risks allowing others to create bad karma, how gentle can the speech be?

[Guardian of the Gate]

I hope that my thinking about this subject will be accepted.  I will state from the start I know nothing about "local Chinese Gods", but I have exprience in local Hindu Gods that operate on a similar fashion as the Chinese.  Although the names change, the modes of worship, interaction and daily life with the dieties stay the same.

First off, Joey is correct about getting things from the  local Gods and then repaying them.  I have seen in what is called "village Hinduism" with my own eyes the requests of devotees and its fruit.  In some cases the repayment is dear, if animal sacrifice is offered it must be maintained or all will be lost.  This is for material wealth in most cases (in some cases no, but it is a special ceremony to remove curse ect).  The Gods can in some cases hold back the return of negative karma, but only if their mode of worship is maintained by parents and children.  Failure to do so allows karma to return like a tidal wave.  I have seen families torn apart from this and worse.   

Second, even local Gods are arranged on heirarchial basis, with the ones at the bottom having the most samsaric qualities, hence the most care when worshiping.  They are very two sided and brings the attention to my first point.  The ones at the top in some cases keep the other Gods in line and in some cases act only with permission from the ones at the top.

Third, black magic can be unleahsed from local Gods.  My family has been the subejct of black magic, and myself had to fight a powerful spirit.  Although not all local Gods allow this, my second point indicates how this can happen.

[alien]

i not even mention once in the entire forum Master Hsuan Hua has never pray to taoist deities.i Dont even say a thing about him either....I dont even say a thing about Four Heavenly King originated from India......why are you so angry....you are not practicing dharma...you cannot control your delusion and anger...you are still human like everybody in this world.......Dont get me wrong...Master Hsuan Hua is not a taoist either.......Master Hsuan Hua is practicing Pure Land Buddhism...i just want to tell is why in this world have so many teachings.....some of them mix up with another.....it is not done my normal peoples...it is dont by some people.....of course now Tibetan Buddhism has flourish and it is very good to the whole world because it gives a clear guide and rules to practicing Buddhism.....i have seen many people pray to taoist deities....i dun think they are have bad consequences....you are now telling the taoist to stop worshipping taoist deities because they have to bear the consequences....what are you trying to say....you go to taoist temple .....do you think the taoist like you??you say the taoist deities is not good but the chinese in China worship these beings for thousands years and they are proud of them.....they even write books say these taoist deities is a bodhisattva .....you check on the internet some gods confered by Jade emperor...Chinese New years they pray to them..look at these taoist deities ' Kuan Kong ' ....most of the chinese worship them.....now you have offend  these higher beings deities i have mention just now....these are the gods and beings stay in heaven which is worship and venerated by many countries......they even set up shrines and temples to worship them....and now suddenly come tibetan buddhism which is very good indeed teach people to gain enlightenment....a very clear guide and rules....i just want to say is if it is so nice chinese culture worship can mix with tibetan buddhism at the same time practicing together to gain enlightenment...would it be good???all problems solve.....walking the path of buddha has many methods.......its all in the minds.......the mind is flexible......not like some people.....haha....

[Guardian of the Gate]

Fourthly, many of the local Gods come from oral history, which is not itself bad but can become lost over time.  In village Hinduism there are more stories than there are Gods, so what is true?  Even some Gods through trance contrdict others channeling the same God, so what is true?  Each temple has a different story.

I am not knocking local Gods, they have their place.  They have helped me through rough times, and in fact it was one who pointed back to the path I walk now.  There have been no spiritual problems (ie attacks that hurt me ect) since that time.  But great care must be taken.  Many people just worship but follow no path (Buddhism ect).  This where the danger comes and I have seen it claim many.  If I may use a Hindu pratice of Bhakti as an example; according to this one must renounce all desire for the material and seek God only.  A path is followed, aimed to purge ones self of ego by submission to a higher, trusted and proved source.  It is not blind submission like the Hare Krisnas.

My intention was not to insult.  I myself have given great thought to this questions, especially in a multi faith marriage.  These are just my views based on exprience, observation and research.  

[Guardian of the Gate]

Alien,

I hear your point on some Gods as Bodhisattvas/Buddhas, and I believe there is truth in this.  If I may quote the Rig Veda, "truth and wisdom are one, but the wise men call it by many different names".  Sometimes this truth is hard to see, and thats where problems start.  In Japan, some Shinto dieties (manily the powerful ones like Takemi- kazuchi-no-kami and Amatersau who are not "local" in nature) are worshipped as direct emanations of Amida Buddha and Vairochana respectivly.  Their functions closely resembe the ones of the Buddhas and I believe that there is truth in this.  The spiritual discipline with them entails great purufucation not unlike Vajrasattva.  Some of my expriences have also confirmed this. 

[alien]

ha...you see...pointed out by Guardian of the Gate..these worshipping deities and gods problems has get into the multi faith marriage....if we do not tolerated worhsipping gods and multi faith and practice in moderation....especially i would like to say to you Joey...You are fanatic.....as i want to pointed out....what we have to do with these deities and gods....non of our business anyway...it is part of culture and ancestor teaching....why we have to make it so complicated....would it be good if all the buddhas teach them do good and bless us....and we worship them on the altar with peace in mind....the buddhas will teach them behave....or the supreme gods.....not us....we are too busy to debate on this thing as we have many other things to do...oh please...for me i just show respect to all deities and gods and boddhisatvas as they are all higher than us and can help me...there is nothing wrong in that..please be moderate in your practicing buddhism.....you havent condemn muslim now.....if you are ...they will wage war against you....you are condemning taoist deities not good...and now you directly condemn many chinese the whole world..to change their culture and method of worship....luckily taoism practicing loving kindness and toleration....if you speak like this against muslim fanatics who have wrong intrepretation and they dont practicing moderation and loving kindness...they will have 'holy war' against you....JOey..talking about religion people quarrel...small thing also make a fuss....you havent go to talk about other peoples personal life or international politics .......

[Crazywisdom]

Alien, is it possible you could be wrong?

cw

Not saying you are, not saying you are not, just something i like to keep in mind, the idea that i could be wrong or that in time my opinion could change.

[Zenji]

Is this the point where all the monks would start making cat calls?

[Joey]

i not even mention once in the entire forum Master Hsuan Hua has never pray to taoist deities.i Dont even say a thing about him either....I dont even say a thing about Four Heavenly King originated from India......why are you so angry....you are not practicing dharma...you cannot control your delusion and anger...you are still human like everybody in this world.......Dont get me wrong...Master Hsuan Hua is not a taoist either.......Master Hsuan Hua is practicing Pure Land Buddhism...i just want to tell is why in this world have so many teachings.....some of them mix up with another.....it is not done my normal peoples...it is dont by some people.....of course now Tibetan Buddhism has flourish and it is very good to the whole world because it gives a clear guide and rules to practicing Buddhism.....i have seen many people pray to taoist deities....i dun think they are have bad consequences....you are now telling the taoist to stop worshipping taoist deities because they have to bear the consequences....what are you trying to say....you go to taoist temple .....do you think the taoist like you??you say the taoist deities is not good but the chinese in China worship these beings for thousands years and they are proud of them.....they even write books say these taoist deities is a bodhisattva .....you check on the internet some gods confered by Jade emperor...Chinese New years they pray to them..look at these taoist deities ' Kuan Kong ' ....most of the chinese worship them.....now you have offend  these higher beings deities i have mention just now....these are the gods and beings stay in heaven which is worship and venerated by many countries......they even set up shrines and temples to worship them....and now suddenly come tibetan buddhism which is very good indeed teach people to gain enlightenment....a very clear guide and rules....i just want to say is if it is so nice chinese culture worship can mix with tibetan buddhism at the same time practicing together to gain enlightenment...would it be good???all problems solve.....walking the path of buddha has many methods.......its all in the minds.......the mind is flexible......not like some people.....haha....

i'm not angry stop using personal attacks or i will really have to show my anger

if you want to keep repeating your points until someone agrees with you, good luck because it dosent work here

gods are not buddhas. you can worship them if you like but associate them with buddhas. the end.

[Joey]

ha...you see...pointed out by Guardian of the Gate..these worshipping deities and gods problems has get into the multi faith marriage....if we do not tolerated worhsipping gods and multi faith and practice in moderation....especially i would like to say to you Joey...You are fanatic.....as i want to pointed out....what we have to do with these deities and gods....non of our business anyway...it is part of culture and ancestor teaching....why we have to make it so complicated....would it be good if all the buddhas teach them do good and bless us....and we worship them on the altar with peace in mind....the buddhas will teach them behave....or the supreme gods.....not us....we are too busy to debate on this thing as we have many other things to do...oh please...for me i just show respect to all deities and gods and boddhisatvas as they are all higher than us and can help me...there is nothing wrong in that..please be moderate in your practicing buddhism.....you havent condemn muslim now.....if you are ...they will wage war against you....you are condemning taoist deities not good...and now you directly condemn many chinese the whole world..to change their culture and method of worship....luckily taoism practicing loving kindness and toleration....if you speak like this against muslim fanatics who have wrong intrepretation and they dont practicing moderation and loving kindness...they will have 'holy war' against you....JOey..talking about religion people quarrel...small thing also make a fuss....you havent go to talk about other peoples personal life or international politics .......

nobody's quarreling. you're trying to create trouble for us. i did not condemm that taoist gods are bad. please show me where i said taoist gods are bad, the exact sentence. If you have problems comprehending english, i suggest that you take english classes. the only fanatic here is the fanatic who keeps insisting in so many posts that it is okay to pray to taoist gods and that they are enlightened despite everyone patiently trying to explain

so alien, since your real intention is to cause mischief and trouble for us, i suggest that you stop posting here. I will not tolerate nonsense like this, especially this show of immaturity and stupidity. You do not read or reason with logic but try to brute force your points, and when people present you reasoning on why it is wrong you call people fanatic. This is not how we discuss. This is not a healthy attitude and you're not here to ask a question, you're here to make trouble. So if your next posting would be that i am a fanatic, you will be banned as my stance is that of many other High Lamas of ALL traditions, as none of them advocate praying to taoist gods, and all of them have say the same thing: if you want to pray to taoist or long life gods, fine but dont equate them with the Buddha.

Buddhism is flexible, but none of them involve praying to taoist gods. if you have nothing constructive to post i suggest not posting.

I know you're taoist and you're trying to push your ideas to us but this is the wrong forum to do so. You might want to discusss your taoist gods with your fellow taoists here: http://www.thetaobums.com/forums.html

[Joey]

Alien, is it possible you could be wrong?

cw

Not saying you are, not saying you are not, just something i like to keep in mind, the idea that i could be wrong or that in time my opinion could change.

he's not here to ask a question, he is here to hawk his taoist beliefs but failed, and now he is resorting to immature methods.

i think this is what the other forums call a troll.

[alien]

banned me??? What is wrong with you Joey....you are not democratic...i would rather play some computer games than debating especially with Joey who think she can banned people she dun like when she fail to make a point here...especially concerning the deities like ' kuan kong '  dharma protector in buddhism, zhao gong ming is a boddhisattva or pusa something like this..according to some master or sifu in the chinese text...what it has to do with the human in the mortal world as i said....they just accept what other teach them but then again they are many teaching in this world which confuse them.....i like tibetan buddhism very much because it worship all the buddhas and not gods....i am not taoist either.....JOey...you dun like accept defeat..loser....this is human nature when some of their point debating go wrong....hahahahha.....i win..........i am enlighten now........will become buddha soon.....

[alien]

Excerpts from Joey.
'nobody's quarreling. you're trying to create trouble for us. i did not condemm that taoist gods are bad. please show me where i said taoist gods are bad, the exact sentence. If you have problems comprehending english, i suggest that you take english classes. the only fanatic here is the fanatic who keeps insisting in so many posts that it is okay to pray to taoist gods and that they are enlightened despite everyone patiently trying to explain

so alien, since your real intention is to cause mischief and trouble for us, i suggest that you stop posting here. I will not tolerate nonsense like this, especially this show of immaturity and stupidity'.

above sentence.you said you did not condemn taoist gods are bad. i show you now.

'If you just want to pray to the Buddhas for money or wealth or anything for this life, go ahead. nobody is stopping you. But dont take refuge as it will cause you to have bad karma.'

what you try to say at the above????bad karma????you said the taoism practicing bad karma by praying to taoist deities like kuan kong and zhao gong ming??you are condemning the whole world chinese taoist now ......so now the chinese taoist has bad karma huh...i dunno how many of them in this world.....i think they dun like you Joey now......you better pray more on buddhas to bless you or else they will come to you......

[GonzoEnder]

I think this is where the Mala sits on top of his head.

We're past 'respectful' catcalls.

 Here's where I weigh in. Wow what an interesting read. Except I'm not here to read about someone else's bathroom flush I'm here to learn Dharma.

BLA BLAH BLAH TAOIST BLAH I LOVE BUDDHA BLAH BLAH SCREW YOU ALL SCREW YOUR BUDDHAS I LOVE TIBET SCREW TIBET.

-Am I getting this correctly because somebody doesn't speaka good engrish... (sorry I had to go there)

I wish sincerely he attains enlightenment before I do... Then I will know its really possible.

Alien's Conduct=horrible

My knowledge of Tao=Not needed, because if 10% or less of their beliefs... This is why I gave up Western Churches. (I love Jesus).