do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities

[jyhopester]

It seems like alien read a lot in mahayana buddhism.
From what I can see, kuan kong is a dharma protector (dharmapala). Buddhists pray to him for his protection over the dharma. The main aim is still for the dharma.
For zhao kong ming and other deities, I have no comments. Is he a bodhisattva? show me to proof.
But at the end of the day, buddhists should pay attention in their dharma practices rather than praying to deities.
It is not wrong for those taoists to pray to their deities, because this is their belief. But for buddhists, we can show our respects to them, but not seeking refuge to them.
I think all these points have been repeated for many many times over here.
But dear alien, did you really read on them?
None of us here is condemning that taoist deities are bad. NO!
Yes, we can be tolerate with other religions in the world. But not mixing them up.
I do read the Bible and Quran, I attended mass in church. I show my respect to them, but not praying to them nor seek refuge from them.
I don't put Jesus Christ nor Allah on my altar. I don't pray to them and said that they can bless me so that I can do better in my dharma practice.
NO!!! Dear Alien, what is wrong is wrong.
Let taoists be taoists and buddhists be buddhists. Don't mix them up!

To guardian of the gate:
The Shinto deities have already existed long time before the existence of Buddhism in Japan. Due to the flourish of Buddhism, Shinto loses a lot of believers and only then they come to link these deities with Buddhas, so that they can be accepted by the society and they could gain the popularity back.

"i win..........i am enlighten now........will become buddha soon....." - alien
how "great" to see you being "enlightened". pointing at joey and saying that she's a fanatic isn't true to me.
Who's the fanatic here? I bet all us can see it clearly.
Did you win or did you lose?
At the end of the day, are you a better person?

Four Face Buddhas ( A Supreme God who create the Universe and Bless Human )? In buddhism, there's no a creator god, so how is it possible that this four face buddha is the creator of the universe??

[gastronome9963]

Many people can't do dharma deep but at least for now they make affinity with the buddhas by inviting buddha statues or making offerings daily.  For some, that's all they can do now and connect with enlightened beings - it is a good start.  Being Taoist or Muslims or Christians or Jainist etc.. is fine.  Look deep into your respect teachings - take its essence and practice.

Being human, we are "naturally" selfish - we always pray for something and mostly for ourselves.  Any religion that advocates self cherishing must be questioned thoroughly? Buddhists are taught to be selfless.  There is a method and path to achieve that.  It takes time and patience.  It is a difficult path but with perseverence, it can be achieved. 

Always check oneself - what is the purpose in life (this life and future lives). How does one achieve this purpose? And ensure the method is satisfactory.

[horshabang]

do you think buddhist can pray to zhao kong ming and other taoist deities ...alongside with practising dharma to gain enlightenment..pls advice ...thank you....blur blur...

Alien - I can only assume you are practising taoism but with an inclination toward buddhism also.  Everyone has his own views and this should be respected.  And every religion has its own teachings and they should be respected.  We don't slag the Christians for believing there is a God Creator or the Muslims who issue fatwahs on people who criticise their religion etc.

Religions in this world are like food - the purpose of the latter to avoid physical hunger and former, spiritual hunger.  Brocolli can be cooked in many ways - with cheese, oyster sauce, curry sauce, etc... the essence of which is still brocolli. Why cooked in so many different ways - because it will attract many people to eat it.

So loving kindness is the essence of all religion - in a similar way, it draws many more people to spirituality. 

If we are unable to understand this - then we must really look inward and ask ourselves - do we really understand humanity?

[alien]

i have to search out the chinese text say zhao gong ming is a boddhisatva once being a monk and confered by some gods or buddhas to help human beings to do good deeds...zhao gong ming is also known as ' the Pusa of the black altar' ....Pusa in chinese means ' Boddhisattva'.......you can check these links for to read about their legends to add your knowledge....

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods/Chapter_50

[Joey]

banned me??? What is wrong with you Joey....you are not democratic...i would rather play some computer games than debating especially with Joey who think she can banned people she dun like when she fail to make a point here...especially concerning the deities like ' kuan kong '  dharma protector in buddhism, zhao gong ming is a boddhisattva or pusa something like this..according to some master or sifu in the chinese text...what it has to do with the human in the mortal world as i said....they just accept what other teach them but then again they are many teaching in this world which confuse them.....i like tibetan buddhism very much because it worship all the buddhas and not gods....i am not taoist either.....JOey...you dun like accept defeat..loser....this is human nature when some of their point debating go wrong....hahahahha.....i win..........i am enlighten now........will become buddha soon.....

you already lost in page 2. all you did in the few other pages was repeat what u said and start using personal attacks expecting me to agree with you. and now when you find out that i still dont, this is what you said. i'll let everyone else decide whether or not you're matured or just a kid.

go play your computer games :0

[Joey]

Excerpts from Joey.
'nobody's quarreling. you're trying to create trouble for us. i did not condemm that taoist gods are bad. please show me where i said taoist gods are bad, the exact sentence. If you have problems comprehending english, i suggest that you take english classes. the only fanatic here is the fanatic who keeps insisting in so many posts that it is okay to pray to taoist gods and that they are enlightened despite everyone patiently trying to explain

so alien, since your real intention is to cause mischief and trouble for us, i suggest that you stop posting here. I will not tolerate nonsense like this, especially this show of immaturity and stupidity'.

above sentence.you said you did not condemn taoist gods are bad. i show you now.

'If you just want to pray to the Buddhas for money or wealth or anything for this life, go ahead. nobody is stopping you. But dont take refuge as it will cause you to have bad karma.'

what you try to say at the above????bad karma????you said the taoism practicing bad karma by praying to taoist deities like kuan kong and zhao gong ming??you are condemning the whole world chinese taoist now ......so now the chinese taoist has bad karma huh...i dunno how many of them in this world.....i think they dun like you Joey now......you better pray more on buddhas to bless you or else they will come to you......

 the rest of the taoist chinese did not take refuge. i said you cant pray to taoist gods and take refuge. do you know how to read? no i guess. oh well hope  you get english classes soon..

[Joey]

i have to search out the chinese text say zhao gong ming is a boddhisatva once being a monk and confered by some gods or buddhas to help human beings to do good deeds...zhao gong ming is also known as ' the Pusa of the black altar' ....Pusa in chinese means ' Boddhisattva'.......you can check these links for to read about their legends to add your knowledge....

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods/Chapter_50

yes but that does not make him buddhist.

so if you want to pray go ahead dont have to convince us.

[alien]

what it has got to do with me anyway??Refering to the below :

i have to search out the chinese text say zhao gong ming is a boddhisatva once being a monk and confered by some gods or buddhas to help human beings to do good deeds...zhao gong ming is also known as ' the Pusa of the black altar' ....Pusa in chinese means ' Boddhisattva'..

this is the taoism teachings....they relate to buddhas and boddhisatvas...they keep using this words buddhas and boddhisattvas in their taoism text....it is not created by me or written by me anyway....i have nothing to do with it....since you say tibetan buddhism is different ...so be it.....i dun have to convince you anyway....people can make their choice..these are the taoism and buddhism teaching which can be found all over the internet....i put buddha amitabha and other buddhas on top of my priority.....taoism deities under them...they all are heavenly beings relate to each other and stay in heavens...they are Frens!!!!They are dharma protectors and bodhisattva.... unless some Asuras and Maras they are not.....Common Senses....if taoism deities like the Three Pure one are enlighten beings...they can still follow Buddhas Teachings dont they????They still can gain enlightenment if they are immortal.....

[jyhopester]

so it's in the taoism teaching. so do you believe in them?
what all these mean to you?
do you pray to them?
do you take refuge in them?
what do they mean to you?

[alien]

i answer each of your questions :-

1.so it's in the taoism teaching. so do you believe in them?
2.what all these mean to you?
3.do you pray to them?
4.do you take refuge in them?
5.what do they mean to you?

answer:
1.taoism teaching believe them? of course!why not.taoism is about many philosophy which is logical such as yin and yang.
2.what they mean to me? taoist deities in exits thousands of years in every household especially chinese.so i just follow.iu think they are great if not better than buddhas.dont you think it is better than human??
3.of course i pray to them some taoist deities.and i follow tibetan buddhism too.i pray to all tibetan buddhism buddhas for your info.
4.did i take refuge in them? i have found in the wikipedia about the word refuge ...it looks like this : Refuge to the Three Jewels.

Primary guidelines

To actualise refuge in:

    - Buddha: commit yourself to one teacher, the Buddha.
    - Dharma: listen, study and practice Dharma to overcome your own delusions.
    - Sangha: respect Sangha and train in accordance with their example.

Commit to:

    - train the body, speech and mind, instead of letting our senses rule us: do not say harsh, cynical things and avoid being judgmental.
    - practice ethics and vows.
    - be kind and considerate to any living being.

[edit] Secondary guidelines

Referring to the refuge in the:

    - Buddha: do not follow other, lower beings as ultimate spiritual guides.
    - Dharma: do not harm or upset humans or animals.
    - Sangha: do not be negatively influenced by any extremists or others opposing our beliefs.

Show respect to the:

    - Buddha: respect all images of the Buddha, treat these as if they are Buddhas.
    - Dharma: respect texts, treat them with utmost care.
    - Sangha: respect even pieces of robes and all who wear robes (regardless of their behaviour).

[edit] Six points of training

   1. Take refuge in the Three Refuges, do not seek the source of your happiness and problems outside yourself.
   2. Offer the first part of food or drink to the triple jewel, by blessing it before eating or drinking by reciting "Om Ah Hum". (The mantra applies only to the Vajrayana tradition. Any offering prayer may be used.)
   3. Encourage others to become inner beings (Buddhists) and to take refuge; but only when one is asked for advice.
   4. Recite the refuge prayer 3x in the day and 3x in the night.
   5. Follow the example of the Three Refuges, rely on them as the only trustworthy refuge objects.
   6. Never lose faith in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

Refering to the above explanation about refuge:One sentence which is important:

 ' - Buddha: do not follow other, lower beings as ultimate spiritual guides.'

Yes.A buddhist do not follow other beings as ultimate spiritual guides.They only follow Buddhas Teachings.the lower beings such as taoist deities is just worshiping following ancestors or chinese traditions.would it be wrong?I dun think so.

5.what do they mean to me????i think they are great.Taoist deities like kuan kong practice kind deeds and full of righteousness.he is the dharma protector.' and the chinese altar has this ' tu di gong' 'di zhu gong'.they bless the household.

i gtg.kind of tired.

[alien]

1.Some people say buddhist cannot pray to worldly gods....taoist deities..........i mean...they are certain gods which we can pray like four face buddhas...but the questions is four face buddhas exits from thailand which is practicing buddhism.....i read a chinese text they say is good to worship them for wealth and protection but cannot be put at home because home is a harmony place...it should be put in business premises located outside the premises....but then again this four face buddhas according to text is good god and merciful....i dunno what thailand buddhist say about it but i am sure they like them very much because they help them to fight demon and evil and bless them for success.....however someone say they need to repay four face buddha kindness...i agree with it......

2.according to tibetan buddhism teachings....we should take vows not to pray to worldly gods..and worldly deities....i totally agree with it if the worldly gods is evil and bad deities......this sentence is very generalize..i mean...they havent consider chinese taoism teaching which have good gods and deities...like kuan kong and zhao kong ming ( no experience on this deities but sources say it help to protect taoism teachings which means he is very good to pray ).i think they are good.

3.i dun agree with joey if someone pray to other world gods and deities is not a buddhist.Let us look in to the tibetan buddhism mantra, mahayana buddhism mantra and theravada buddhism mantra....when we recite some buddhism mantra....we also recite the name of many deities , heavenly deities , gods , ghost and so on ....in this case this prove that we are asking all of these beings to protect us not just buddha....dont you agree??but then someone claim if a person pray to worldly gods and worldly deities which is good...they are not buddhist???not logical.....i totally agree with it if buddhist pray to worldly gods and deities which is bad.....in this case i have to check on the internet which worldly god is bad or deities is bad.....if we can recite the buddhism mantra which contains buddhas ,gods , deities , heavenly beings , nagas , dragon , celestial beings...dont you think we can worship them????very logic! i am not saying we should worship all these beings...we should follow buddha teachings to end suffering....which is a dharma practice......amitofo.....

[Guardian of the Gate]

Alien

I can see your point of view, but remember this is a forum for Tibetan Buddhism, and many here are direct students of Rinpoche and are very devoted to his teachings.  You can not change their minds or attitudes on this matter.  There are somethings that I dont agree with in some cases, but I remind myself it is their tradition not mine and respect that.  Surely the Tao speaks of this. 

It is natural to have confusion on this matter and have questions, but let the inner conflict you face stay in the confines of your mind and spirit.  To me (I will not speak for others) I see that conflict in you and suggests to me that your thinking seriously about these matters as the teachings presented here may in some cases contrdict what you have been taught.  Just be respectful in your exploration.

BTW, Joey is not a fanatic, but a dedicated student.  That is what students due, humble themselves before their Master.  Anything less is a half hearted unsincere attempt.

[ketchup]

With due respect to all who posted on this thread - this is as Guardian of the Gate stated, a Buddhist Forum. 

Alien - you posted a question whether buddhist can pray to other taoist deities.

Joey and others merely responded from the Buddhist perspective - that Buddhists should not propitiate to worldly gods.

Alien - you are not very knowledgeable in the buddhist practice and yet you are upset when a buddhist posting in a buddhist forum explains some of the buddhist practices in relation to worldly gods.  If you don't agree, at  least respect others' views and move on. If you are a staunch Taoist practitioner and also adopt buddha's teachings in your daily life - great! You get tired posting on this thread because you are holding on to your own views as correct and cannot accept others' explanations or practice.

Just because a being is a bodhisattva doesn't mean that a buddhist has to pray to him.  Jesus is a boddhisattva, Mother Teresa is a bodhisattva, Mahatma Ghandi is a bodhisattva, Prophet Muhammad is a bodhisattva etc... but buddhist don't pray to them or take refuge in them.

Buddhist take refuge in the 3 Jewels (The Buddha, Dharma & Sangha) but they do not take refuge in dharma protectors (unless of course the dharma protector is also an enlightened being - again this is unusual).

Taking refuge in the  3 Jewels will help one attain enlightenment but propitiating to a dharma protector helps one clear obstacles on the path to enlightenment.  Two totally different functions.

Buddha taught the 4 Noble Truths.  His teachings can be ritualistic or if one prefers, philosophical.  Alien, please check out Buddha's teachings and please ask many more questions.  Things (or actions) that may seem logical can be illogical and vice versa. We should not look at them based on face value but rather look deeper into the  motivation behind each action.

[Joey]

1.Some people say buddhist cannot pray to worldly gods....taoist deities..........i mean...they are certain gods which we can pray like four face buddhas...but the questions is four face buddhas exits from thailand which is practicing buddhism.....i read a chinese text they say is good to worship them for wealth and protection but cannot be put at home because home is a harmony place...it should be put in business premises located outside the premises....but then again this four face buddhas according to text is good god and merciful....i dunno what thailand buddhist say about it but i am sure they like them very much because they help them to fight demon and evil and bless them for success.....however someone say they need to repay four face buddha kindness...i agree with it......

2.according to tibetan buddhism teachings....we should take vows not to pray to worldly gods..and worldly deities....i totally agree with it if the worldly gods is evil and bad deities......this sentence is very generalize..i mean...they havent consider chinese taoism teaching which have good gods and deities...like kuan kong and zhao kong ming ( no experience on this deities but sources say it help to protect taoism teachings which means he is very good to pray ).i think they are good.

3.i dun agree with joey if someone pray to other world gods and deities is not a buddhist.Let us look in to the tibetan buddhism mantra, mahayana buddhism mantra and theravada buddhism mantra....when we recite some buddhism mantra....we also recite the name of many deities , heavenly deities , gods , ghost and so on ....in this case this prove that we are asking all of these beings to protect us not just buddha....dont you agree??but then someone claim if a person pray to worldly gods and worldly deities which is good...they are not buddhist???not logical.....i totally agree with it if buddhist pray to worldly gods and deities which is bad.....in this case i have to check on the internet which worldly god is bad or deities is bad.....if we can recite the buddhism mantra which contains buddhas ,gods , deities , heavenly beings , nagas , dragon , celestial beings...dont you think we can worship them????very logic! i am not saying we should worship all these beings...we should follow buddha teachings to end suffering....which is a dharma practice......amitofo.....

just because from tradition some people pray to gods, dosent mean they're right. Its like how china had foot binding and sacrificing people every year to dead ancestors for good luck...but like i said, there is nothing wrong with taoism but Buddhism does not agree with taking them as refuge. The 4 faced god that the thais pray to is actually brahma, the jade emperor's big boss.

we can make friends with gods , deities , heavenly beings , nagas , dragon , celestial beings with offerings and some basic prayers but thats about it. Nothing more because the refuge with the Buddha is the highest. In those mantras, such as the Shuragama mantra, those beings have promised the Buddha to protect those who chant the mantra which is why the mantra has their names. But it still does not mean that Buddhists can pray to them.

If you consider yourself taoist and pray to them there's  nothing wrong, but its contradictory when you still do that when you have already taken refuge in the Buddha Dharma and Sangha. There is even one story about Anathapindika, the Buddha's sponsor who took refuge in the Buddha and was protected when he passed by a demon infested place. But when he saw the statue of a  god and prayed to it, he lost his protection and was attacked.

thats just how the story goes and yes, please respect the Buddhist beliefs and principles.

[alien]

what story????kids story????in all my entire life searching on buddhism text ...i havent found such a thing...christian and islam religion...yes...i agree...they cannot relate to buddhism it is totally different religion.......but taoism text always say about guan yin and buddhas........and all the other buddhas as well..they mix up....they mix up with buddhas,guan yin and taoist deities...i see nothing wrong with that???hey ..joey.....if you did not pray to that deities...please stop convince people buddha will not protect people who worship taoist deities for protection...you are just a student....if you are envy on people  pray to taoist deities and pray to all these beings mix up with buddhas and tibetan buddhas.....then you are not qualified to talk about this...you are qualified talking about tibetan buddhism..but not mahayana buddhism,therayada buddhism and other form of buddhism which eventually take them to enlightenment....you are not a good buddhist...you are selfish buddhist who did not take other peoples view....you are not qualified to tell people buddhas will not protect people who pray to 'good deities' especially taoist deities which found on chinese text....buddhas is very dissappointed with you distorted peoples view...n.....