Newbie question! - Chants? Statues? The supernatural?

[niloc]

Hello all!

I have been trying to find out the answers to the following questions all over the Internet but there isn't really any direct answers.

Hope to gain some insight from the more "enlightened" ones over here. =)

Note: I understand that the jist of buddhism is about the 4 Noble Truths, followed by the Noble Eightfold Path to free ourselves from suffering - and then "reach" nirvana! What I don't "get" are the following:

1) Why should / must we have so many buddhas or Dharma Protectors, etc to give our respects to?

2) Why do we need to recite mantras and chantings for all the many different deities / buddhas?

3) By reciting a line of words (the mantra / chanting), how does it actually work? Is it .. real? (sorry..)

4) If we want to follow the Noble Eightfold Path and reach our own enlightenment, and not ask for "favours" from worldy deities etc.. then why do we still ask the many buddhas for protection or to remove obstacles etc?

5) I guess Tsem Tulku wouldn't say it is a compulsory thing and if I don't want or believe in doing all those, then I simply shouldn't. But to those who are doing, why? What.. makes you want to do it? I agree with showing our respects to all the Great Teachers (Buddha) but why do we chant the many many many different om mni padmes all with different effects / purposes / usage?

6) It does feel like buddhism isn't just about it's core teachings but has gone into many supernatural aspects (sorry.. =( don't know of a better term for it)

Basically I understand and more importantly agree to all the concepts of buddhism but what I don't feel comfortable or understand more is why all the many many many statues / different manifestations that we need to recognize and have special chantings and all that?

I am torn between the logical aspects of buddhism which appealed to me and the supernatural aspect to it.

Thank you for your time in clarifying my confused / doubtful mind.

Note: Forgive me if the words I have typed out sounds offensive. I have no ill intentions, only wishes to gain a better understanding.

[ysng101]

Hi,  I'm a newbie too. I've often asked the very same questions that you are asking now. I think I may be able to help you with some of the questions.  But pls,  my answers are far from perfect. 

1) + 2)  I've read somewhere there's an infinite number of Buddhas, it doesn't mean you have to chant and give respects to each and every one of them.  The buddhas manifest in so many different forms in order to  reach out to all the different sentient beings with different mindset and mental dispositions.  My fav buddha is Shakyamuni , but there are people who just love the fierce buddha's with many arms.  So follow your heart  and hear which Buddha calls out to you.  That doesn't mean you shut out all the other buddha's.  Sometimes you may have even practiced some of the other buddha's saddhana's in your previous life, but you've forgotten now. So keep an open mind. If you practice 1 buddha , the other buddha's don't get jealous. Don't worry.

3)  The mantra's are actually given by other buddha's, the sound of the mantra contains the essence of that particular buddha's energy. There's a perfect talk given by Rinpoche on mantra's , it's on DVD  and can be obtained online or from the Kechara Paradise outlets.  When you first begin to chant mantra's , it feels weird , you're not sure what you are doing , whether it's right or wrong.  After a while you'll settle down,  you'll begin to feel natural chanting mantras. It's peacefull , calming but more than that,  you're creating a 'connection' to that buddha.  It's really not something you can put into words, and it'll be different for different people.  But one thing I've found out, there are certain things in life , you would just have to do it first. You can't say "I'll start chanting mantras after I understand what it does and how it works"  But .. you'll only understand after you begin doing it. Do you see where this is going ?

4) You are not required to ask for protection from the many Buddhas, In fact the buddha has said that the dharma is your best protection. But we are not sure of the  many bad karma's that we have accumulated from our previous & current lives. Bad karma's which has not yet ripen. And when they do ripen , they will create many obstacles and sufferings to our dharma practice. So, if we are ever gonna ask for help, at the very least ask help from enlightened beings, which are here to help and guide you for long term ... until enlightenment.

5) If you look at our daily prayers, it's not just about picking up a mala and chant away. In my daily sadhana's, I take refuge, I recite the 8 verses of thought transformation , Lama Tsongkhapa guru yoga which has meditations which involves these aspects like invocation, prostration, praise,offering, confession, rejoicing, requesting to remain and dedication. And of course some chanting in between the prayers. All these things that we do are all geared towards changing our way of thinking and living. These prayers when done sincerely with the correct motivation, contains too many benefits to mention. Try it out and see !

6) It looks/sounds supernatural because you're new to it. Once you read up more, its just called vajrayana buddhism. All these teachings, came from Lord Buddha himself. As I mentioned earlier, the teachings are diverse because people's mind are diverse. Keep an open mind. Don't ever reject any of the different buddhist traditions  ( theravada , mahayana and vajrayana ). But sooner or later , you would have to choose the path that you feel most comfortable with, a path that'll be able to get you to enlightenment as soon as possible , so that you may come back help the rest of us get out of samsara.

do ask more questions. There are many other senior students of Rinpoche who are very qualified to answer your question. You'll be suprised to find that it's much much more logical then it looks.

[waybackhome83]

Hey

All religions have a narrative, stories, icons, rituals, practices etc.  Ironically (I'm sure this could be a divisive point), leaders such as the Buddha and Jesus Christ would have said that such things are unnecessary - it's the essential, core teachings and how you practice according to them that counts.

To give a basic example, you might have an altar at home, have a statue or two, make offerings, visit temples, monasteries, sit in on talks by highly attained teachers etc., but anyone can do this - it's the actual development of your mind that requires the effort and commitment, and the guides on how to do this come from the teachings, and your practices determine what you achieve.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that the list of things I mentioned are completely unnecessary.  They have immense benefit, especially having a teacher to guide you.  As Rinpoche has said, you don't have to have a teacher or a community to show you the way, just as similarly you don't need a driving instructor or a piano teacher to show you how to drive a car or play piano: you would get there eventually on your own, but with lots and lots of false starts and errors along the way...therefore, a teacher helps remove a lot of obstacles.

Similarly, the rituals and practices themselves have great benefit.  However, where it becomes a problem is when we think these things alone achieve the results, or that Buddhas can relieve our sufferings if we just ask them (much in the same way some Christians might expect their shopping list of prayers to be delivered by God).

The Buddhas are all enlightened beings, with perfect awareness and perfect equanimity, compassion and virtue.  What they have achieved we can all achieve, and so we tend to respect and revere them as guides, inspirations and examples of how we would like to be, and with sincere and continuous commitment to our practice, we eventually can achieve  what they have done. 
Of course, perhaps it's also the case that we are thankful to the many Buddhas and other great Buddhist teachers because without them, you and I wouldn't now be talking about what the original Buddha discovered and what the rest perfectly maintained and, thankfully, continue to maintain.

To ask "favours" from Buddhas, in my opinion, depends on your motivation.  If you wish to help and be of benefit to others, but there are obstacles in the way of you doing so, then you are asking that you are freed from these obstacles in order that you can benefit others.  This is good motivation.  However, if you ask, "Please may I get the money to holiday for a month in the Maldives so that I can come back and practice the Dharma and be a benefit to others"...I think they'd see through that sort of trick   So it depends on your motivation what you ask for. 

In the end, practices, the chanting, the rituals all create conditions for your mind to focus on what you're doing.  Great chess players can play a game in the midst of noise, but it is nevertheless very difficult for them to concentrate.  There has to be certain conditions met for optimum performance of the task, one of which is that the room must be silence.  Similarly, meditations, chanting, rituals all serve to provide the optimum circumstance to develop one's mind.

Like Yew Seng, my answers aren't perfect, certainly not definitive.  One of the best things about Buddhism for me is that, while there are teachings and practices and rituals, these are all beneficial and instrumental in allowing you to find your own way, as opposed to providing a rigid, wagging-finger religion.

It's always good to question.  You shouldn't blindly believe or accept anything that doesn't reason with your own mind (that comes from the Buddha himself).  Ask yourself and others as many questions as you find initially, have a look around, read up on the background of Buddhism, its origins, its culture, its narrative, and take yourself looking for the answers to your own questions - it's only natural to be inquisitive.

With time, you'll come to understand more and like Yew Seng says, you'll be surprised to find out just how logical Buddhism is. 

Kind regards,
Sandy

[spiritnoname]

Niloc it probably won't make complete sense until you have the pith instructions in the Vajrayana.

Vajrayana hasn't deviated from Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings except where it is misunderstood.

[Crazywisdom]

Hi Niloc,

Welcome to the forum 

Don't worry about offending anyone with your questions, it should be impossibly to upset anyone here if we are doing it right 

1) You don't need  to, just like a socket set or shoes, you pick the one that fits best and 'use' that one. (even though all the other shoes are perfectly good in their own way)


2) See above, i started out doing seven om mani peme hum's ever day and have worked up to five rounds on my mala and Lama Tsongkhapa guru yoga in the morning and Vajrasattva practice in the evening, these are all for specific 'things' that they are helpful for.

3) I was very sceptical at the start of any benefit of reciting a mantra, but after doing my seven om mani peme hums when i started (which i kind of resented doing), i have felt the how much good they are doing me and now kind of feel odly out of step all day if i don't do them for whatever reason. When you are ready try it and see for yourself 

4) I don't know  i don't really ask for anything, i just pray for friends and all sentient being who are suffering to suffer less and be happy 

5) I think its a method, not the only method, but one that works for me and many others, try it and see for yourself, if it doesn't suit you then there are many other traditions that suit other people 

6) Its like building a house, when you first start you are happy to go to the shop and buy your bricks and timber, but when you progress to building the perfect house  you spend you time learning to grow the best trees, digging up clay and designing the perfect kiln in which to make your bricks, designing the best paint for the timber, a watering can for the trees etc, all these later activities look a bit extreme when seen from a beginers  view point.
Start where you are, if what you are doing now helps you, good keep it up 

Some of the other traditions don't focus so much on deities etc so it might be worth checking those out too if deities don't appeal to you.

Jon 








   

[niloc]

So if I am getting this right, it is something like:

Listening to fast techno music will provide a more conducive "environment" whereby a driver will want to drive at a very fast speed.

Listening / chanting mantras will provide a more conducive "environment" whereby the Buddhist will advance further at a faster rate.

Besides that, I now understand that it is something like:

1) Buddha taught 100 students.

2) 100 students achieved enlightenment and "return" to help more to do the same.

3) 100 teach another 100 each, reaching 100,000.

Hence two conclusions:

4a) More and more different and new buddhas everyday (from the 100,000).

4b) And also, different manifestations of the original buddha to fit the different personalities of people.

Is this correct?

I now understand the concept, what's next is probably the "realness" of it.

Can anyone share with me their experiences besides calming and soothing effect?


The "sceptic" in me keeps on telling me that:

a) Having faith in chanting om mani etc (for example) will remove obstacles in our journey to help others.

is the same as

b) Having faith by praying to Jesus, Allah, etc to give you strength and a clear path to help others.


So though it is beginning to sound logical to me in terms of the concept, I am still doubtful about the "realness" of the whole process / system.

It's like, I MAY and WOULD LIKE to ask for help, but it is difficult for my kind of "buddhist mindset (investigate properly first)" to just start believing in asking for help from other enlightened ones because it might not be real..

Therefore back to my request, if anyone can share with me (if they have) experiences about "connecting to the Buddha" although now it sounds quite Christianish. Haha.

Thanks alot for letting me ask so many questions which I know may sound very offensive to some because it is casting doubts on another's beliefs. Apologies once again.

[spiritnoname]

 Almost no westerners have the pith instructions in the Vajrayana, I imagine it is similar in Malaysia.
 What you really want is an explanation of the vajra, adi Buddha and the Buddha families.

 I can't help but notice that development comes second when most people talk about deities,..  it's kinda disgusting how confused people are, they're sure about the deities doing magic but unsure about the deities transforming their minds.

[niloc]

Sorry but what exactly are "pith instructions"?

And just for the record of this topic's direction, it is more towards how real the chantings and Buddhas are in terms of helping to clear the paths to enlightenment (and various others) instead of asking how real are the magic and hocus pocus which Buddhas can do to help us with our worldy sufferings. =D

And also, whether it is a "right" practice to do so, or encouraged to do so by Dharma teachings.

[ysng101]

I now understand the concept, what's next is probably the "realness" of it.
Can anyone share with me their experiences besides calming and soothing effect?

Chanting is just a part of the whole journey to enlightenment. Other than chanting, effort is needed , in the study of the buddhadharma. So it's not all experiential.   For me, my daily sadhana's are the anchor to my practice. No matter how bad/good my day went, I'm in front of my buddha statue. I see an enlightened being.  A human being, who thru practice has managed to escape from delusions and ignorance , and acheived permanent happiness, freedom from suffering.  It inspires me to practice more sincerely. Everything I do ( the sadhana's / chanting ) is to help change me towards that same goal.  I personally don't experience any magical / mystical feelings when chanting. But there is a slight 'connection'.  That 'connection' is still there somewhere inside me whenever I feel bitchy and want to lash at out someone in anger.  Most times I stop.  I become a better person because of that.

Having faith in chanting om mani etc (for example) will remove obstacles in our journey to help others.

   
just chanting itself, I'm not sure will remove obstacles.  There are specific practices ( not just chanting ) , for example setrap pujas that help remove obstacles. In the setrap puja itself , there are meditations to do , elements of the 4 opponent powers ( regret, reliance, determination not to repeat that action and remedial action .  All these are again geared towards changing our way thinking/living.  I assume that you believe in karma.
so, going to a setrap puja with sincere motivation   as compared to going to a movie, eating popcorns. Remember, all actions has karma.  You have 2 different actions. Are the karmas created by these 2 actions the same ?  Can it be the same ? Should it be the same ?

 Even doing the puja's does not bring immediate effect ( depending on the motivation of the person performing it ) Sometime a lot of pujas are needed because the sincerity/motivation is not as strong/good. But if a person like Rinpoche does the puja, because of his PURE motivation , the effect comes very fast. The karma changes very fast.

Keep on asking, these questions will help a lot of other newbies as well

[wmw111]

1)   Why should / must we have so many buddhas or Dharma Protectors, etc to give our respects to?

When we do prayers one can imagine the Buddha ( Lama Tsongkhapa for example )  we are praying to is the synthesis of all Buddhas. And when we make offering to the lama we think of him as the synthesis of all Buddhas.

2) Why do we need to recite mantras and chantings for all the many different deities / buddhas?

We don’t need to if there is no need to. But various Buddhas perform specific functions. Though for example the yidam lama Tsongkhapa you have , the seven limb prayers in them , it has collection or merits + purification within the seven limbs it should suffice. However if one is afflicted by tremendous financial difficulty , the practice of Dzambala comes into the picture as being more effective to transform the mind so that you can overcome your obstacles of financial difficulty to be able to engage in Dharma . You can be hungry and think of doing the dharma can you ? When one is ill Medicine Buddha , when one is afflicted by spirits there is a pantheon of wrathful deities for that purpose.

3) By reciting a line of words (the mantra / chanting), how does it actually work? Is it .. real? (sorry..)

Oh yes, Rinpoche’s lama’s can chant a mantra throw rice rain can stop or start depending on the need. But the practices are  not meant to make us rain gods . It is to help avert obstacles to practice or help to transform our minds.
Prayer is creating a cause using our mind speech and action .  When a cause is created as its said in the Lam Rim Karma is infallible or Definite it will manifest even after aeons when the conditions are right.

Scientifically they have done research on hospital patients the people that prayers are channeled to do feel better

For prayer to work
i)   good motivation free of the 8 worldly concerns ( praying for someone to have good motivation to benefit them )
ii)   when chanting think deity and lama as one
iii)   good knowledge of the rituals
iv)   to take strong refuge in the 3 jewels ( holding one’s vows )
I got this from the Puja group






4) If we want to follow the Noble Eightfold Path and reach our own enlightenment, and not ask for "favours" from worldly deities etc.. then why do we still ask the many buddhas for protection or to remove obstacles etc?

99.9 % of people their negative karma manifested , they need help to do dharma practice some have health issues , some afflicted by spirits , some people  have been helped by protector (enlightened ) to overcome no job situation , some plain lazy like me.  It is said human life is as fragile as a bubble more factors contribute to death than living , hence its no different for us to do the dharma there negative forces outer and inner that will throw us off the path . Protector practices and doing the guru yoga for example are powerful means to protect us along the path.  Setrap at our center is Amitabha emanation, propiatiated by monks of Gaden for the last 600 years since Lama Tsongkhapa time. What is there to doubt about his efficacy and the help he bestows.

Actually the real protector is your Karma , if you can fully restrain yourself from doing negative acts what else is there to fear .But until one gets such a clarity about the workings and effects of karma. Good to rely on Protector .if you develop true Bodhicitta I read one does not require a Protector anymore one’s progress is guaranteed and full enlightenment is a question of WHEN. 

5) I guess Tsem Tulku wouldn't say it is a compulsory thing and if I don't want or believe in doing all those, then I simply shouldn't. But to those who are doing, why? What.. makes you want to do it? I agree with showing our respects to all the Great Teachers (Buddha) but why do we chant the many many many different om mni padmes all with different effects / purposes / usage?

Answered on top ? Yes?

6) It does feel like buddhism isn't just about it's core teachings but has gone into many supernatural aspects (sorry.. =( don't know of a better term for it)

If you want to know about Buddhism study the Lam Rim. It has all the foundations from impermanence , karma , to practice of renunciation , bodhicitta , meditation on ultimate reality and etc. But how many people actually want to study the Lam Rim and meditate on the topics ?

[wmw111]

Spirit ,
Can you explain about vajra , Adi-Buddha and the 5 Buddha families in relation to what Niloc has asked.
Adi-Buddha or primordial Buddha is called differently in different sects right
 Samanthabhadra ( ? ) ,  Vajrasattva ( Nyingma ) and Gelugpa ( Vajradhara )?
The five buddha families, the main buddhas in each family are the five types of delusions purified . Amithabha practice counters desire specifically . Hence different deities and different Buddhas ? How am I doing?
let me know how all the dots line up

[spiritnoname]

WMW, yes, adi buddha is called differently in different sects.
That's correct about the Buddha families, but still there is need for explanation of yidams as personal identities and even how adi Buddha, the yidam passed down from Shakyamuni turned into Vajrapani Bhutadhamara and then the Buddha Families and all the other yidams.

 I don't want to be the one to explain this subject, not right now or here.

[waybackhome83]

I'll chip in with my shortest writing yet haha.

"Pith" just means essential, root, solid, firm etc

[niloc]

I see, so probably because of the way people phrase things, for example:

Pray to Dzambala Buddha for better wealth!

It can actually mean either:

1) Praying to become rich and all that

2) Praying to overcome financial worries to focus on the Dharma

And because MANY are more concerned with material wealth, they tend to focus on #1.

And because of that, people like myself and perhaps others as well tend to conclude that all this praying mumbo jumbo is "fake" and "not right" in buddhism!

But actually it's just the common perception of people, and not the real truth!

=D


Therefore, regardless of Medicine Buddha or Wealth Buddha or Wisdom Buddha or etc Buddha (don't know them all yet), regardless what "logic" is explained on what they can do for you and their "powers"..

Regardless of all that..

People who share my kind of thinking will always feel that it is supernatural and just another "belief", some typical chinese taoism kind of thing. Pray to the Gods for this and for that simply because of the common perception among people.

BUT BUT BUT after reading most of what you all have said, especially WMW111's colourful writings...

It finally hit me that "getting help" from all the many types of Buddhas is NOT for wealth and good health and what not.

It is a delusion.

It is actually for clearing our obstacles in the true path to attain enlightenment quickly as we can so that we too can come back and help liberate others.

But the misconception came from many who pray to the Buddhas and ask for help, for the wrong intentions.

And also probably the wordings.. like in the "no more caves" newsletter it is stated that Dzambala is for "increasing personal wealth and business" and that can be seen in another pov as for individuals to contribute and then gain "help" from Dzambala for your own material happiness only.....


So is my understanding more or less correct or I got it wrong? haha.

[ysng101]

And also probably the wordings.. like in the "no more caves" newsletter it is stated that Dzambala is for "increasing personal wealth and business" and that can be seen in another pov as for individuals to contribute and then gain "help" from Dzambala for your own material happiness only.....

I think the reason is that,  initially  there are people who are attracted to buddhism by these means.  Once they start practising , Then , they will realise there's more to that , than just increasing personal wealth and business.  As you may have seen on youtube,  our Lama is all about knowledge, logic and change.  Our kind lama is constantly thinking of ways to spread Buddha's teachings to benefit more sentient beings.  For this region,  the above methods are perfect .  Because the chinese here are all for wealth and prosperity .  People that might never have bothered with religion, are starting to learn.  You see, it's never about blindly following practices,  our Lama can and will teach,  the senior students can and will teach. You're getting the whole package.   There will be transformation . Our lama will tease you to death if there isn't.