Dharma lasting?

[SharpPudding]

 We are all Vajrayana here right? Well,.. What happens when all the competent teachers that are here right now die? And even worse, what happens when all the people (as few as they are) who are very accomplished in Vajrayana die? I'm worried. The quality of most of the practitioners I see in the world right now is horrible.  What bothers me the most is people who don't even know the basics but have HYT empowerments. Scary, twisted people, who rightly shouldn't have been permitted. I've seen people trying to fuse western witchcraft with tantra too. The transmission of Vajrayana to foreign cultures is hard.

[awacs]

We are all Vajrayana here right?

No

Well,.. What happens when all the competent teachers that are here right now die? And even worse, what happens when all the people (as few as they are) who are very accomplished in Vajrayana die? I'm worried.

They wont, as long as you have a karmic seed to see them. For majority of the peoples on the earth, they are already extincted.

The quality of most of the practitioners I see in the world right now is horrible.  What bothers me the most is people who don't even know the basics but have HYT empowerments. Scary, twisted people, who rightly shouldn't have been permitted. I've seen people trying to fuse western witchcraft with tantra too. The transmission of Vajrayana to foreign cultures is hard.

You're actually also judging the holy lamas who gave them empowerment. If practitioner is not ready, that empowerment will be a cause for practicing Vajrayana in future lives.
You should use your common sense in assessment of westerners practice, however this is not the case only in the west.

[SharpPudding]

 Dude, the holy lamas giving out practices like this are the ones most horrified by it.

 As for the karmic seeds thing, in order for karma to ripen it requires proximate causes. For instance, if there is no water, you might have seeds, soil and sun, but you will not have seedlings.  And likewise if there is no one capable of teaching you on planet Earth, you will not get teachings on planet Earth, regardless of whether or not you have "seeds" and other proximate causes like a human body.

 Believe or not, Vajrayana is not so forgiving, it's potentially the fastest and most secure route to hell. I'm glad you have such a optimistic view about Vajrayana, but it just doesn't work that way, you don't know enough about it to be making blanket statements like that.

 I hope you take these refutations the right way because I don't have time to argue them. Vajrayana is not a matter of opinion, there are ways to train correctly and ways to train wrong, and because of the nature of this mental training it can rip you apart from the inside out, ruining your life from top to bottom, leaving you a broken person and possibly taking others down with you.

[awacs]

Dude, the holy lamas giving out practices like this are the ones most horrified by it.

Vast majority of empowerments given to the western students are not full empowerment. They lack some of the key aspects, like asking a lama three times, preliminary teachings on emptiness, detailed explanations, prostrations in 10 directions afterward, etc. So you actually cannot break what you don't own in the first place.

As for the karmic seeds thing, in order for karma to ripen it requires proximate causes. For instance, if there is no water, you might have seeds, soil and sun, but you will not have seedlings.  And likewise if there is no one capable of teaching you on planet Earth, you will not get teachings on planet Earth, regardless of whether or not you have "seeds" and other proximate causes like a human body.

Actually you don't need water, just moisture. You can kill an Arhat and his blood will be just fine as "proximate cause" or condition, for a seed to grow. What I'm trying to say is that mental causes (empowerments) need only mindstream to ripe. All other is irrelevant.

Believe or not, Vajrayana is not so forgiving, it's potentially the fastest and most secure route to hell. I'm glad you have such a optimistic view about Vajrayana, but it just doesn't work that way, you don't know enough about it to be making blanket statements like that.

So what. Vast majority will end up in hells anyway. We were all in hells countless times already. When Devadatta tried to hurt lord Buddha, he actually allowed him knowingly that it will create a strong karmic connection between them, and thus create the causes for for Devadattas own enlightened. Once when he get out of the Avici hells, he will be reborn as a Pratyekabuddha.

I hope you take these refutations the right way because I don't have time to argue them.

Fine by me.

Vajrayana is not a matter of opinion, there are ways to train correctly and ways to train wrong, and because of the nature of this mental training it can rip you apart from the inside out, ruining your life from top to bottom, leaving you a broken person and possibly taking others down with you.

I agree on that. Ripping is of course figurative.

[waybackhome83]

Essentially, a teacher's job is to get rid of their students, so if the students are devoted enough to their learning, eventually it shouldn't matter when the teacher dies.

The quality of "most" practitioners in the world is probably at a decent standard, and hopefully constantly improving.  I think it's hard to make a statement so huge when it's probable that you haven't witnessed the practice of most practitioners in the world.

Generally, it's said that Buddhist teachings will fade away completely, but that afterwards, the next Buddha will return and reboot the world.

Kind regards,
Sandy

[SharpPudding]

  Awacs, you might not know this, but Tibetan heads had made a decision not to allow anymore Westerners to teach.They're afraid it will get out of hand. What you also don't seem to know is that the Tibetan schools are not going to last much longer, they're on their last legs and won't exist in the world as they have anymore. And because the transition of teaching is not taking place, Vajrayana is in  a very bad situation. On one hand you have Westerners that don't practice right, aren't even being taught right, on the other you have young Tibetans who grew up in modern places and just don't have much expertise expected to fill the role of Vajrayana masters that are disappearing fast. And the time that Tibetans are regarded as a cute novelty is almost up, who knows how much longer people will bother bringing in teachers who basically spit in their faces by giving only half of a practice.

[awacs]

 Awacs, you might not know this, but Tibetan heads had made a decision not to allow anymore Westerners to teach.

I really don't know about that.

They're afraid it will get out of hand. What you also don't seem to know is that the Tibetan schools are not going to last much longer, they're on their last legs and won't exist in the world as they have anymore. And because the transition of teaching is not taking place, Vajrayana is in  a very bad situation. On one hand you have Westerners that don't practice right, aren't even being taught right, on the other you have young Tibetans who grew up in modern places and just don't have much expertise expected to fill the role of Vajrayana masters that are disappearing fast.

You are right, but they are disappearing because peoples generally don't have karmic seeds to keep them around. If you perfect your guru yoga practice there is no need for you to be concerned. Even if you are the only living being in universe with causes to see a authentic lama, conditions will arise. Similarly, there are high lamas who can actually see Manjushri, Tara, or Guru Rinpoche, although they "do not exist" for the rest of us.

And the time that Tibetans are regarded as a cute novelty is almost up, who knows how much longer people will bother bringing in teachers who basically spit in their faces by giving only half of a practice.

But they are not "spiting in their faces". You can give only so much food to a person as he can digest at that time. There are many stories of animal being collecting great karma by just accidentally walking around stupa. Imagine how much more karma can that peoples collect by opportunity to get blessing by authentic lama and creating karmic connection. As i said, perfect your practice of guru yoga, and teachings you will receive will be flawless and complete, even if they lack some of the elements, because most important of them are the ones in the mind of the student (i.e. right intention, motivation, understanding, etc...).

[SharpPudding]

 I just explained about proximate causes being necessary for karma to ripen. If the Vajrayana lineages die out completely, they're dead. We can do a small amount in reviving tantras if we already have a few HYT by means of self initiation, but if there is no one with HYT that can't happen.

 It's not spitting in the face? What do you call it when teachers visit an area, give out empowerments, knowing full well that none of those people have tutors, none of them will be able to use it, no one will even be able to keep the vows, then leaving to either teach their real students or continue collecting money.

 HYT is not something that should be done with missing elements, yoga tantra should not be done with missing elements. Every single feature of tantra has a distinct purpose, every little detail of the deities has a distinct meaning for your practice.

 Westerners don't realize that they are still being viewed in a racist way by Tibetans, Westerners are not getting trained properly, they're given virtually no value as practitioners. I think you all should know this in the West and start demanding real teachings from your teachers instead of raising millions of dollars to fly them out to sports arenas to give talks on world peace. Do you think that's what HHDL is for? You think he was incarnated to give the same old talks about being nice to each other? Or do you think he's here for teaching HYT?

 I dunno, maybe you don't have the karma, you don't even put the teachings on world peace into practice. You have access to a ever increasing number of practice texts but you don't follow the instructions in them. Most Westerners can't even commit to doing a hour of practice a day, everyday.

[waybackhome83]

You seem to make an awful lot of loose and vague statements that, with all respect, don't seem to have any purpose.

How can you know that "most Westerners" don't practice for at least an hour a day?  Unless you can go round "most" people and observe them, it's a pretty baseless assertion. 

Also, to say that Tibetans view Westerners in a "racist" way is wholly absurd.  From what I've understood from previous research, the Tibetans seem a fairly peaceful and accepting bunch on the whole.

I don't think it's for the West to demand any teachings from anyone.  It's insane to think that people can demand anything from any teacher - always much more polite to request.  And perhaps the reason certain teachers are invited to parts of the world is because they and their teachings are highly valued and respected.

I've never known any spiritual teacher (certainly not Buddhist), nor heard of any cases where a spiritual teacher has "spat in the face" of anyone, metaphorically or otherwise.

It would be helpful if you could provide your sweeping assertions with substance, in order that we can learn from your knowledge, but unfortunately without any real support, a lot of what you're saying here isn't helpful at all.

Kind regards,
Sandy

[SharpPudding]

Way, I notice you live in a dreamworld and like to talk about things you don't have any experience with.

 FYI, people are lucky they're even allowing Westerners to hear teachings in the monasteries at Dharamsala, 40 years ago if you were white you were not allowed in, early translators were lucky to hear talks through vents.

[waybackhome83]

If you could point out how you know anything of my experiences, and how I "live in a dreamworld", I'd be happy to discuss the points with you, but otherwise, I think you've done yourself a pretty massive disservice, which is a shame. 

FYI, you're still insisting on making points that a) have no real relevance and b) nothing to back them up.  How you can ever expect anyone to learn from your no-doubt vast knowledge is quite the riddle.

Kind regards,
Sandy

[GonzoEnder]

We are all Vajrayana here right? Well,.. What happens when all the competent teachers that are here right now die? And even worse, what happens when all the people (as few as they are) who are very accomplished in Vajrayana die? I'm worried. The quality of most of the practitioners I see in the world right now is horrible.  What bothers me the most is people who don't even know the basics but have HYT empowerments. Scary, twisted people, who rightly shouldn't have been permitted. I've seen people trying to fuse western witchcraft with tantra too. The transmission of Vajrayana to foreign cultures is hard.

Believe or not, Vajrayana is not so forgiving, it's potentially the fastest and most secure route to hell. I'm glad you have such a optimistic view about Vajrayana, but it just doesn't work that way, you don't know enough about it to be making blanket statements like that.

 I hope you take these refutations the right way because I don't have time to argue them.

-SharpPudding

SharpPudding, if you do not have time to argue your point (into the ground!) please do not make these off-hand comments. They are not verifiable because you-yourself say you will not verify. You do not have the right to argue if you will not support your stated argument thoroughly, with verified facts (in my opinion). If you really want to win a debate, and not just in cockiness, you have to make us see your point of view, and do it kindly to boot! It's hard I know, but you have to benefit everyone not just a 'select' group. Please keep in mind Pudding I am not refuting/disparaging your views here, merely commenting on how you can make them better! Rinpoche's root Guru was from America, as were Rinpoche's younger ,and teenage years. Excuse me but if you are attempting to say that such accomplished masters as HHTDL, or Zong Rinpoche (Emanation of Heruka) were/are racist and wrong for giving out empowerments, you better please explain how 2 Buddhas failed to do their job properly and what would be the best route to those Buddha's giving secure empowerments in the future?

SharpPudding, I like you. Your are a bit 'sharp' on the edges and some people might get cut by your scathing criticism, but your a thoughtful person. I value your input whether it is positive or negative because you are not afraid to speak openly. I can grow and learn from either one. I intend to grill you right now, though, because I don't believe most of your statements could hold up even a Jenga game... One more positive thing, though. I applaud your adherence to real tantric practice.

[To: AWACS- Good post, very matter of fact, in as few words as possible. The 'quote and then rebuttal' format seems to work well.]

Essentially, a teacher's job is to get rid of their students, so if the students are devoted enough to their learning, eventually it shouldn't matter when the teacher dies.

-Sandy

I have to start writing this stuff down! We have gotten some legendary quotes between the 15 or so of us who frequent this forum a few times a week (more or less). I better cut it. I could go on and on/back and forth.

-Josh Akers Aka: GonzoEnder

[SharpPudding]

  Gonzo  is a little crafty! Way just knows a few of Ajahn Brahm's quotes hahaha, yes I recognized.
 
 Gonzo, I keep things vague intentionally sometimes because I don't know who will read what. In your response you brought to question people that others in the forum have taken refuge with, so that's about as far as the conversation will go with me.

 My points are verifiable, you guys just don't seem to be close enough to any teachers to know what I'm talking about. If we were in a group of translators or first generation Western students you would be outnumbered. The way most people see teachers is at a distance, as if they are in a fan club, and they don't really know what's going on, what is supposed to be taught, what the necessary things to practice are, etc. The fact of things is there are three main kinds of lamas, empowerment lamas, tutors, and preceptors. They can all be the same person if you're lucky enough, but the most important is the tutors, and virtually no Westerners have tutors. 

 As for the racism bit,.. omg,..  you guys live in a bubble.

 Way, you're asking me to verify things that you have to see first hand or hear about, and while I have seen notes on this in the commentaries on recently translated texts, they aren't texts I will refer you to.  The reason I say you live in a dream world is because you think you know about things you don't know about, meaning,.. you make it up, like a person in a dream makes up things. Please tell me about your Tibetan research, did you google Tibetan and find that they are  a happy group of non racist people.

[awacs]

I just explained about proximate causes being necessary for karma to ripen. If the Vajrayana lineages die out completely, they're dead. We can do a small amount in reviving tantras if we already have a few HYT by means of self initiation, but if there is no one with HYT that can't happen.

Yes, you did and i just explained the arising of them. Once when karma is ripen in your mindstream, conditions (proximate causes) will arise simultaneously. Karma maturation is affected by subtle mind state. Do you really think that conditions happens somewhere out there, independent of your mind.

It's not spitting in the face? What do you call it when teachers visit an area, give out empowerments, knowing full well that none of those people have tutors, none of them will be able to use it, no one will even be able to keep the vows, then leaving to either teach their real students or continue collecting money.
 HYT is not something that should be done with missing elements, yoga tantra should not be done with missing elements. Every single feature of tantra has a distinct purpose, every little detail of the deities has a distinct meaning for your practice.
 Westerners don't realize that they are still being viewed in a racist way by Tibetans, Westerners are not getting trained properly, they're given virtually no value as practitioners. I think you all should know this in the West and start demanding real teachings from your teachers instead of raising millions of dollars to fly them out to sports arenas to give talks on world peace. Do you think that's what HHDL is for? You think he was incarnated to give the same old talks about being nice to each other? Or do you think he's here for teaching HYT?

I'm not really interested in what Tibetans (including lamas) think about us.  I can create only my own karma by observing my own mind. There is a teaching out there about using difficulties as a path. So I try to make the best of circumstances that are "out there". You can have a greediest lama around, but as long as your own conduct and motivation around him is perfect, what you collect is perfect karma. He will have to deal with his mindstream later.

I dunno, maybe you don't have the karma, you don't even put the teachings on world peace into practice. You have access to a ever increasing number of practice texts but you don't follow the instructions in them. Most Westerners can't even commit to doing a hour of practice a day, everyday.

I don't understand are the practice instructions ever increasing, or dye out as you mentioned in first paragraph. Considering world peace there is no such teaching existing. World peace is just all the personal peaces put together. So, when HHDL teaches "world peace" he actually teaches you about your own mind in a only way that you can understand and digest. If you are learned in Buddhism, than you know that everything you need to reach enlightenment is in the preliminary prayers. It is pure Buddha mind put into words. Just like eight verses of thought transformation or Bodhisattva vows. And the best thing is that they are not even secret.

[GonzoEnder]

In your response you brought to question people that others in the forum have taken refuge with, so that's about as far as the conversation will go with me.

Actually, you called them into question. I specified whom exactly you had called into question with your statement. I mentioned 3 names. I did not call into question anyone else but those 3 names. The question was yours originally.

I see you are beginning to refine your broad sweeping statements with more pointed ones.

The fact of things is there are three main kinds of lamas, empowerment lamas, tutors, and preceptors. They can all be the same person if you're lucky enough, but the most important is the tutors, and virtually no Westerners have tutors.

-SharpPudding

Now there is something specific I can write about! Let me keep it simple. Rinpoche is a 'westerner'. He is also an 'Easterner', these are not solid states of being (east/west), they are generalizations that shift back and forth. I have not heard this '3 teacher' (one if your lucky) theory. It does not appear to be supported by any sutras, but I did not verify this claim.

My points are verifiable, you guys just don't seem to be close enough to any teachers to know what I'm talking about.

-SharpPudding

That is a very dodgy statement which presupposes that you know all of us, and further that you know all of us to the extent that you can assume nobody who speaks has a tutor to back them up? I don't really need a tutor to refute statements like this one... 'Closeness' to a teacher is a relative thing. You can go on tour with your favorite Buddhist saints for a decade and still be less educated or renounced than someone from Timbucktoo who does the work.

Please tell me about your Tibetan research, did you google Tibetan and find that they are  a happy group of non racist people.

-SharpPudding

Racism is everywhere. Think about Tibet for a while... Tibet is not even a sovereign nation anymore. It's not even a self-governing province. Tibetans are freedom fanatics. Don't you think your society would be pissed off? Lama's don't feel this anger, because they can effect more pro-Tibet changes by adhering to the Dharma. Regular folks just get out the old pitchfork, and their minds close to outsiders because outsiders caused the damage to begin with. It is a large karmic circumstance ripened onto a large number of people at once (like war). These are very complex factors and all have to be accounted for to get a good answer. Your broad sweeping statements are just not very effective.