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Author Topic: Self deception  (Read 513 times)
Joey
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« on: May 12, 2010, 12:40:03 AM »

i guess this is one of the hardest defilement to get rid of because it is tied to the ability of differencing right from wrong.

basically self deception is the act of convincing yourself that whatever you are doing is right, and that others who try to correct you are wrong (not pointing fingers but yeah thats what it is)

if you come to think about it, all of us are in some way of self deception, like it is ok to be Buddhist and allow living beings to be killed for our palate for example, despite the fact that the very act contradicts the very idea of compassion and Karma, and how we still enjoy samsara despite knowing for a fact that nothing good comes out from it.

Having a Guru does help a lot to wake us up from these, but to what extent is our self deception? let's just talk about it Tongue
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 07:25:29 AM »

 a story i just read which i feel points out many deceptions...i count three in the story..how about you?

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/05/12/man-accused-of-killing-neighbor-over-dog-pee.html?sid=101
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 07:06:51 PM »

Isn't a 'total lack of self-deception' also the definition of 'enlightenment'?
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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 07:34:17 PM »

a story i just read which i feel points out many deceptions...i count three in the story..how about you?

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/05/12/man-accused-of-killing-neighbor-over-dog-pee.html?sid=101

looks like one of those stuffs that happens in movies.

Isn't a 'total lack of self-deception' also the definition of 'enlightenment'?

yep that as well. but since its "self" deception it is a huuuuuuuuuge loop. And even our definition of what enlightenment is can fall into that category
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 04:40:03 AM »

I was just thinking this morning about a situation that happened to me about a year ago when i got dumped, and now could see looking back how i was decieving myself about how well i was coping with it.

I think the difference Dharma makes to us at the start is not that we instantly stop decieving our selves, but that we become open to the fact that we do decieve our selves, and that this means that others also decieve themselves too.
Our solid little world becomes slightly less so, and keeping in mind, that things are not quite how we and others think they are, makes us less spikey and more accepting people to be around.

Jon  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 09:58:41 PM »

Jon,
if we love others and want others to be happy, then if someone is happy dumping us , why not let them win Smiley
then we are sincere in wanting them to be happy yes? 
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 10:02:36 PM »

Todd,
There was a story during Buddha's time when Buddha happen to be around when two warring parties wanted to fight over the rights to a river.
He asked them what is more precious
' The blood of princes or the water they are willing to shed their blood over'
these princes did come to their senses Smiley . Peace did not last indefinitely though Smiley 
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'Fear is the absolute confusion between you and your projections'

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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 04:03:03 AM »

Jon,
if we love others and want others to be happy, then if someone is happy dumping us , why not let them win Smiley
then we are sincere in wanting them to be happy yes? 

Agreed  Grin

Jon  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 08:04:26 AM »

i guess this is one of the hardest defilement to get rid of because it is tied to the ability of differencing right from wrong.

basically self deception is the act of convincing yourself that whatever you are doing is right, and that others who try to correct you are wrong (not pointing fingers but yeah thats what it is)

if you come to think about it, all of us are in some way of self deception, like it is ok to be Buddhist and allow living beings to be killed for our palate for example, despite the fact that the very act contradicts the very idea of compassion and Karma, and how we still enjoy samsara despite knowing for a fact that nothing good comes out from it.

Having a Guru does help a lot to wake us up from these, but to what extent is our self deception? let's just talk about it Tongue

Hi Joey...does "self deception" you mentioned also consider in this situation? Such as  like i am dead holding myself not to complain but accept things as it is.  Its like i am faking myself to be cheerful while i am so hurted with someone or others  talk bad abt me. Its like i am saying to myself i would be ok while in my heart i feel like wanna insanely scream out loud saying its unfair life!  Angry   Smiley

I seriously feel i am in some way of self deception as well?
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Kaivalyananda
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 10:13:33 AM »

Namaste,

I recently came off a longish self-imposed retreat and am happy to see some movement on the boards.  Smiley

In my experience thus far, self-deception arises by a combination of past conditioning and a lack of mindfulness - often chosen. The habit of past conditioning (which I define primarily as childhood programming) has us always focusing our attention outside of our own sense doors. In other words, one hears a sound - that is a knock on the sense door - then the past conditioning kicks in to say, "That was a cat, yowling." then because we are SO used to allowing things that appear outside of ourselves to drawn us further from true understanding, we continue with, "I guess it must be in heat." So then we believe that thought and now, when someone comes to us and tells us the cat is sick, we defend our belief that the cat isn't sick rather than allowing for the possibility that it just MAY be sick...possibly to the detriment of the cat. I'm sure you could've come up with a better example. :-)

Mindfulness shifts our understanding of our thoughts and beliefs into more of a mode of "Guilty until proven innocent." I once heard a woman quoted as having said, "My mind is a dangerous place, I never go there by myself." It doesn't have much to do with the subject but I enjoyed the quote. But to twist it up so it can be useful here, if we consider all our thoughts and beliefs to be just another passing fancy, then it can be realized that they ARE just passing fancies. They are shapes in smoke, fun to watch but nothing to hold onto. But, if one doesn't watch them, then one runs the risk of falling into habit and believing them to be true, which may work out in the short run but will cause trouble in the long run.

One of the methods that helps me is this: I have spent many years meditating, studying, and living the Dharma to learn about who I am and what it's all about. A few realizations and understandings have presented themselves over the years, and yet I am STILL finding that I learn stuff. ("Wait! You mean I DON'T know it all???!!!" HA!) Realizations still happen. Now, I've arranged my life to allow me to have the time to study and meditate and have time alone and go for walks and listen to dharma talks and so on...most people haven't. With all the stuff I found myself filled up with, chances are good that others got filled up by a bunch of the same crap I did, yet they haven't had the chance to work on it as I have. Yet even with this, I STILL learn from them. This keeps me humble and allows me to understand that though we all - well, maybe you don't - often fall into the trap of believing one of our thoughts or beliefs are true.Believe me!! I'm the real deal!! Really! I know the other thoughts and beliefs were wrong, but I am RIGHT! I am Truth!! So says each thought and belief.

Yeah, right.

If my thoughts were to take human form, I wouldn't believe it if that being said the clear Summer sky was blue. My thoughts have lied to me so many times I can only see it as entertainment anymore. I may act as though this thought or that one is true, but only as a scientist tests a theory.

As for the ending of the relationship, I once heard a story:
A Master of one town once heard that the Master from another town had died and so sent one of his disciples to see how the students of the late Master were fairing. Upon arriving in the other town, the fellow was aghast when he beheld the students of the late Master celebrating and singing in the streets. He went back to his own Master with the report, expecting his guru to rush tot he town to save the sanity of those fellows. Imagine his surprise when the guru smiled and said simply, "They understand."

I hope this helps in some small way.
Om Shanti
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Crazywisdom
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 11:45:29 AM »

Kaivalyananda,

Interesting read, thankyou  Smiley

Jon Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 04:07:20 PM »

i guess this is one of the hardest defilement to get rid of because it is tied to the ability of differencing right from wrong.

basically self deception is the act of convincing yourself that whatever you are doing is right, and that others who try to correct you are wrong (not pointing fingers but yeah thats what it is)

if you come to think about it, all of us are in some way of self deception, like it is ok to be Buddhist and allow living beings to be killed for our palate for example, despite the fact that the very act contradicts the very idea of compassion and Karma, and how we still enjoy samsara despite knowing for a fact that nothing good comes out from it.

Having a Guru does help a lot to wake us up from these, but to what extent is our self deception? let's just talk about it Tongue

It is more like the attachment to this worldy stuff is stronger than the wish to renounce it.  Hence we shut out the truth. This also arises as the belief in karma is not very strong.
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Joey
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 12:01:49 AM »

I think the most painful part of this is to have your self deception exposed by another person either intentionally or accidentally. Of course being exposed means the deception is destroyed but how do we handle it? And how do we stop generating more while being in samsara?
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Kaivalyananda
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 09:46:58 AM »

I think the most painful part of this is to have your self deception exposed by another person either intentionally or accidentally. Of course being exposed means the deception is destroyed but how do we handle it? And how do we stop generating more while being in samsara?

Having self-deceptions shown to one is only painful if one really wants to hold onto the deception. Since my practice is to let go of deceptions and that is the primary focus of my life, I have found that maintaining an accepting or "big-picture" attitude is useful. Knowing that I am beginning with many deceptions that I am unaware of, when someone exposes to my awareness a previously hidden deception, I am joyful. In sales training it is taught that each "No." brings the salesman closer to a "Yes." Therefore it is wise to celebrate each "No." Similarly, when one is seeking to find all the diamonds within oneself, one must first sort through the dirt. If one is blessed enough to have someone else helping one dig through the grit and grime of one's past conditioning, that is a very helpful blessing indeed!

As for not adding to it: mindfulness. I once heard an interview in which HH Dalai Lama was asked, "Do you have any regrets?" To which came the reply, "Yes. I killed a mosquito yesterday." The interviewer was shocked! He said, "That is your only regret?" "Yes," answered HH, "When one remains mindful of one's thoughts and actions, one doesn't do the things that one would later regret." I would venture that this is true of accumulating self-deceptions.

Metta
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