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Author Topic: The Mantras on the site create negative karma  (Read 3959 times)
awacs
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »

"Good deeds are karmic cause only for good results, but they can be condition for any kind of other karma to manifest."

So, I can tell a cat a mantra, with good intentions, and because of his karmic conditioning (which is lower than a human for him to be in the state of cat) – he bites me, because of his own karmic conditioning or misconditioning?

If there is any single exception from some rule, then the rule is wrong. I.e. work isn't the cause of money, because peoples sometimes get payed, and sometimes don't. So work can only be a condition (and not the cause) for someone to get money.
On the other side if you have a cause for money, any kind of action (robbing, killing, stealing, borrowing, working, etc...), can serve as condition. It has nothing to do with intentions.
So in your case, causes are ripen to see some ungrateful cat. And, since you are the one who is perceiving unpleasant result, it is product of both YOUR and cats bad karma. The real causes (fruits) of mantra are not yet manifested in yours neither in cats mind.

Of course, it could also be argued, the mantra, under the guidance of the deity, is sitting dormant in the cat’s consciousness, until such times as causes ripen for it to take proper effect?  That is, the cat dies and takes a rebirth as a human.

Actually yes, this is what i claim. Effects of mantra are stored in alaya, or store-house consciousness, and will manifest once the conditions are ripen. In your or mine or cats case, it could be in numerous aeons. Only when conditions are ripen, we will see the result. So, you should simultaneously work on purifying your mind, and not solely on planting karmic seeds, by mere chanting of the words.

Of course i could be wrong  in this  Roll Eyes

Another reason I like to include the subject-object dichotomy in a discussion involving two entities – A synonym for perception is Skandha – who is also deified as a protector warrior deity.  Hence, if one attempts too much to alter the Skandha or perception of another, they are in effect invoking an inner warrior deity in the other, who’s purpose is to protect that one’s view of truth  – and a highly charged reaction can occur.

Personally, I believe this is the reason for the old adage – “a curse can only be softened, not broken.”

Based on this, perhaps I should atone as well for false notions of Skhanda I’ve created as well?  People will fight, it seems, to protect both their relative and their absolute truths, even when they are clearly shown to be an error.

I'm sorry, this is out of my league. I really don't know why peoples are sometimes afraid to accept change in circumstances or in the way they are thinking. However, i would not claim that if you are attempting too much to alter the Skandha or perception of another, that you are in effect invoking an inner warrior deity in the other, who’s purpose is to protect that one’s view of truth, because it would be arguable that peoples then cant collect bad karma, because it is the inner warrior deity who is in fact responsible and should go in hells instead of them or at least with them.   Huh
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lazzara399
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2010, 01:21:06 PM »

"However, i would not claim that if you are attempting too much to alter the Skandha or perception of another, that you are in effect invoking an inner warrior deity in the other, who’s purpose is to protect that one’s view of truth, because it would be arguable that peoples then cant collect bad karma, because it is the inner warrior deity who is in fact responsible and should go in hells instead of them or at least with them."

Perhaps I should not have used deity yoga terms - but thank you for showing me my own blinders.  If the person you are speaking to, or teaching mantra to, is a deity yoga practictioner, they should have realized that reactive anger is wrong action.  I like your refutation however and agree - working with meditational deities does not relieve one of accountability for their karma producing actions.  That view would be akin to the child's excuse - "the devil made me do it."

Thank you too, for clarifying me on your view of causes and conditions.  I'm going to step back to the original topic, and try to analyze it in light of higher and lower truth, as well as deluded vs. pure consciousness - and see if I can come up with another argument.  I believe as well, to develop the problem, the relationship between pupil and lama (or guru or master) and the concept of practice committments needs to be included.   Personally, my instructions on revealing any mantra is to include instructions on proper practice.
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awacs
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 10:22:38 AM »

If the person you are speaking to, or teaching mantra to, is a deity yoga practictioner, they should have realized that reactive anger is wrong action. 

I wouldn't be so sure. As far as I know, when anger arises practitioner should detach from emotion, "look" at it, and ask himself where does it come from.

...I'm going to step back to the original topic, and try to analyze it in light of higher and lower truth, as well as deluded vs. pure consciousness...

There is a very interesting book with whole chapter on what is mantra and how does it actually work by Jamjon Mipham - "Luminous Essence - A Guide to the Guhyagarbha Tantra". You can find it here if you have an urge to learn: http://ifile.it/kcnq3uz/1559393270.pdf    Smiley
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lazzara399
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 06:44:00 AM »

Thanks for the link - it looks like an interesting book - however, after reading Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche's introduction, I'm not sure how beneficial working with it would be.

"When studying a profound text such as this, it is imperative to proceed in an authentic manner with the blessing of the lineage. In the case of the tantric scriptures, this means to receive the appropriate empowerments, reading transmissions, and oral explanations of the text from a qualified lineage master. Simply reading the text on one’s own will not facilitate a genuine understanding of either the
words or their meaning."

Perhaps snow lion press should limit its direct sales to temple or monastic book stores of the correct lineages?  Or earthly masters should not be so quick to sell their teachings?  Smiley  It seems directly on point with the subject of this thread. 

This is why I consider most snow lion publications to be "New Age Buddhism" - something that Bon Masters tell practictioners to stay away from.

I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the topic of bookstore teachings and practice manuals.

Thanks again,

Joe


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SharpPudding
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2010, 11:08:42 PM »

In the beginning of the thread western bonpos were mentioned,... Wrathful Buddha mantras are worthless without samaya with the refuges,.. without your vows, without bodhicitta and the emptiness teachings wrathful Buddha mantras are nothing more then sounds people make with their mouth.
 
 There's no lower protector prayers on the site I'm sure, but those may actually harm the bonpos as they're not necessarily compassionate.

 These are my thoughts anyways.
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