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Author Topic: Submitting to the Guru  (Read 1098 times)
pummy369
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« on: September 25, 2010, 07:39:48 PM »

Here is a small section of Rinpoche's teaching on youtube - Guru Devotion.  This is a topic that I find presses some of my alarm buttons, but in what follows, I find a great deal of logic for why submitting to the Guru should not be so alien and threatening - especially to a Westener - as if first seems.

When we submit to the Lama, it is not to lose our freedom; it is to gain full freedom.  Why?  Through the practice of Dharma and Enlightenment, you gain full freedom, not just money, not just long life, not just protection from obstacles; you gain full freedom.  You gain control of where you go and what you do and your rebirth and how your benefit.  You gain full benefit.  So, if your next rebirth you want to have money, you will be born into money.  You will be born where you want to – you gain full control.  That’s why we submit to the Lama.  Just like we submit to school, training, for our teachers, to our parents – that’s the whole reason – to our counsellors, to our psychiatrist, to our doctors – we all submit.  We’re always submitting.  There’s nothing new to submit, only now it’s a person that’s helping us on the ultimate highest level, we are submitting.  We submit to our doctors to invade our bodies; we have one body - if he messes up we are finished.  We submit to our beautician; one wrong jab and some muscles will never move again.  We submit to our teachers, we submit to our wives and husbands, we submit to our children.  Heck, some of us even submit to our dogs and cats, where our lives are controlled by our dogs and cats.  Controlled.  We can’t do this, we can’t serve the Guru, we can’t go here, we can’t do anything because we’re completely controlled by our pets.  We put ourselves in that situation – purposely or not, I don’t know.  We always are submitting to others. Now it’s nothing new to submit to our Guru, nothing new.  Why?  It’s for a much higher purpose.  Much higher.  Much, much higher purpose.  
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 07:43:14 PM by pummy369 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2010, 06:36:07 AM »

Once we have checked out a teacher, and accepted someone  that is able to guide us. We must submit otherwise don't accept the teacher in the first place.

Sometimes we are asked to do things that really challenges us as the teacher can see we struggle with such things which is why he ask you to do it in the first place.
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Joey
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 05:58:07 PM »

The surrender here is to knowingly accept and do whatever the Guru tells you, like how you'd open your mouth for the dentist or allow the doctor to touch your body.

I think Rinpoche has elaborated on this before in many of his talks. It's not a new concept: trust your Guru with your spiritual matters as you would your financial matters to your accountant, or your legal paperwork to your lawyer. You need  to just allow. Thats pretty much about it...
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 09:27:22 AM »

I find it useful to ask oneself, "Am I teachable?" My criteria for finding this answer is first accessing how willing am I to learn and then, how willing am I to change? If I am not highly motivated on both these counts then I might as well stay home.

Many of the practices of the Gurus and teachers are predicated upon time and compassion. There is only so much time a Guru has for his students because there is only so much time in a day to devote. Let's say a teacher needs 6 hours to sleep, and go potty. Everything else can be done in a group r with company. He teaches a few hours a day in group class format, and then devotes .5 an hour to each of his private students. Some will need more than that, others less. Some will need to come in several times a week, others much less. So, the time he has to devote to each student is limited, why should he waste his precious time trying to teach someone who is not fully devoted to changing their ways when there are a hundred more on the wait list who would benefit?

So a system must be set in place to determine who is serious and who is just playing. One starts an ashram center and watches who is living the teachings. After a while, it becomes obvious who is really serious by their actions. Those who are not chosen to be private students are still on the wait list or may gain some benefit from being around those who are seriously working. When a student "graduates" then a new one is chosen to fill the available space from those who have proven themselves to be ready. In this way, the direct submission to the Guru becomes just for the push that is required to make the final plunge.

Sometimes though, this system may be circumvented if the teacher sees something in the potential student that indicates an exceptional learning ability, or if one finds a Guru who is just beginning to become known. One thing many don't realize is the level of compassion that is required to become a Guru (teacher). It is MUCH easier to stay unknown and live free. Students are always trying to pin the teacher down and inflict him with their expectations and rules of How A Guru Should Be. Talk about being judged! Bu that's another subject.

So, may these words be of benefit. Om Shanti
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 11:13:09 AM »

Here is a small section of Rinpoche's teaching on youtube - Guru Devotion.  This is a topic that I find presses some of my alarm buttons, but in what follows, I find a great deal of logic for why submitting to the Guru should not be so alien and threatening - especially to a Westener - as if first seems.

When we submit to the Lama, it is not to lose our freedom; it is to gain full freedom.  Why?  Through the practice of Dharma and Enlightenment, you gain full freedom, not just money, not just long life, not just protection from obstacles; you gain full freedom.  You gain control of where you go and what you do and your rebirth and how your benefit.  You gain full benefit.  So, if your next rebirth you want to have money, you will be born into money.  You will be born where you want to – you gain full control.  That’s why we submit to the Lama.  Just like we submit to school, training, for our teachers, to our parents – that’s the whole reason – to our counsellors, to our psychiatrist, to our doctors – we all submit.  We’re always submitting.  There’s nothing new to submit, only now it’s a person that’s helping us on the ultimate highest level, we are submitting.  We submit to our doctors to invade our bodies; we have one body - if he messes up we are finished.  We submit to our beautician; one wrong jab and some muscles will never move again.  We submit to our teachers, we submit to our wives and husbands, we submit to our children.  Heck, some of us even submit to our dogs and cats, where our lives are controlled by our dogs and cats.  Controlled.  We can’t do this, we can’t serve the Guru, we can’t go here, we can’t do anything because we’re completely controlled by our pets.  We put ourselves in that situation – purposely or not, I don’t know.  We always are submitting to others. Now it’s nothing new to submit to our Guru, nothing new.  Why?  It’s for a much higher purpose.  Much higher.  Much, much higher purpose.  


Hey Pummy!
Great to see you here. This is a good topic, always fascinating and beautiful to consider.

Yes, this is quite a difficult subject for most modern people to comprehend - this sense of devotion and submission feels quite alien. Actually, like Joey pointed out, we already have devotion to a lot of things. We are so devoted to our husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends, we are get devotion to our gym trainers and doctors and lawyers, we totally put our lives in the hands of the doctors, who cut us up and invade our bodies. We allow ourselves to develop this huge devotion and submit to things that bring us so little benefit in the long run and which, in some cases, even damage us! So logically, it doesn't make much sense that we are so afraid of being devoted to a teacher.

It is, however, important that we check a teacher fully first before we take him as our teacher (in the same way we thoroughly check the reputation of our doctors, teachers at university, lawyers, therapists etc etc). We should be firm in our conviction that this teacher is right for us and we can follow his teachings all the way. We believe that he will bring us enlightenment! If we don't check properly, and we change our minds halfway, or we're wishy-washy about following his instructions and teachings to us, then the only person who loses out is ourselves because then, we allow ourselves to forever change our minds, and we end up nowhere.

Anyway, Rinpoche has given many, many extensive teachings on Guru Devotion and the relationship we have, as modern spiritual practitioners, with a Guru. It's very logical and we can see clearly by these how beneficial it is for us to go all the way with our teachings.

Rinpoche has published a book on this: Gurus for Hire, Enlightenment for Sale http://www.kechara.com/publications/publications/tsem-tulku-series/gurus-for-hire-enlightenment-for-sale/

Also, the original teachings that Rinpoche gave on this subject (a 16 part teaching):
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHLkcamyPxc
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goat
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 06:21:09 PM »

I sure would like to hear from pummy..she is a great poster..miss you pummy :p
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pummy369
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 06:55:28 AM »

Aw-w-w-w!  Thanks Goat.  I haven't been around for a while, it's true.  Juggling health, work, selling our home - I kind of have been swept up in it and swept away somewhat from the Dharma.  It's still in me though.  It amazes me and I'm glad for it.  I did manage to get to see HIS HOLINESS recently in Melbourne  and I think that re-ignighted the Dharma flame within me some what.  He did teaching for 3 days there.  

While there I was so fortunate to find myself  having my lunch right next to a great Tibetan Lama, from whom I have received teachings in the past.  He is soon to be Abbot at Gyme Tantric in India and now days he does not tour with his teachings and it is next to impossible to see him; he's just so busy.  I do love him though and it was just insane to be sitting right next to him.  He's so beautiful that when I went up to him babbling and asking him to pray for a horse I know that had just passed away, he just embraced me and gave me his time and was so purposeful and compassionate in the way he took the photo of the horse to pray for her.  He has so many students that I'm sure it would have been next to impossible for him to place where we have met before, but it doesn't matter because one look at me and he knows my mind and what I need.  I was so fortunate to bump into him a few times (well...after that I did assist the whole "bumping into" process a little).  He's my "study" Lama, because his message for me is always to tell me to study the Dharma.  (I find that the main teachers I have met/received blessings/teachings from, all seem to serve a purpose in my path and they all have a different emphasis or message for me and I have not found that any of it clashes.)

Anyway, all of this brought me a little closer to the path again and since then I have started to do some work for my local Dharma centre again and I even went to Lam-rim again and boy oh boy do I love Lam-rim.  It's my fave class to go to.

I'm trying to re-focus and bring Dharma back into my daily life in small and consistent doses.  Recent events have shown me that I have to take the initiative myself.  

It's so good to see you still here Goat.  You're doing good work.  See you around soon ok. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 02:37:18 AM »

good to hear from you : ) 
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 06:23:08 PM »

Pummy!! its really good to see you around! Please be around Smiley i really missed all of your posts! *hug*
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pummy369
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2011, 07:01:41 AM »

Oh shucks Joey! I do hope to b around - just less round :-). Get it?
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pummy369
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2011, 07:30:09 AM »

Y do I always feel like such a goose in front of the Lama? Y does my brain go to mush and I get kinda hot? U would think I would use that moment to ask something important or say something good but no - it all goes pear shaped. I can't stand myself around the lama and I wish myself would go away sometimes and that a better self that knows what it's doing would show up.
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Joey
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 10:45:14 PM »

Y do I always feel like such a goose in front of the Lama? Y does my brain go to mush and I get kinda hot? U would think I would use that moment to ask something important or say something good but no - it all goes pear shaped. I can't stand myself around the lama and I wish myself would go away sometimes and that a better self that knows what it's doing would show up.

maybe its because he asked you to do something and you didint? Tongue
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If you propose to speak, always ask yourself, is it true, is it necessary, is it kind." ~Buddha
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