New Age and its misinterpretation on Je Tsongkhapa

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi everybody

To people who read this: JE TSONGKHAPA IS A BUDDHA! You do not have to question this! But if you do, here is how you get out of this: look for the events on Je Tsongkhapa life and also to his writtings, it speaks all by itself! You will get the same conclusion that I got: HE IS A BUDDHA! On the New Age  moviment however, they got Je Tsongkhapa teachings and life events and DISTORTED it or interpretated it on their own views IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN DOGMAS.  But if you act as someone that goes to the source texts, you will see how distorted is the life of Je Tsongkhapa when interpreted and wrote by some New Age authors...

One of my friends, here in Brazil, is a follower of Helena Blawatski. He said to me that Je Riponche expeled thousands of monks on his reform in Tibetan Buddhism.

I doubt very much of this affirmation, (but he show me the book in which HB wrote that.... I'm NOT a fan of HB, this is why I came to ask if someone knows about this, in other words), that really happened?

Thank you all
Plinio Tsai

[Joey]

Hi everybody

One of my friends, here in Brazil, is a follower of Helena Blawatski. He said to me that Je Riponche expeled thousands of monks on his reform in Tibetan Buddhism.

I doubt very much of this affirmation, (but he show me the book in which HB wrote that.... I'm NOT a fan of HB, this is why I came to ask if someone knows about this, in other words), that really happened?

Thank you all
Plinio Tsai

I havent heard of anything like this before. I'll try to investigate for you. But what I do know is a lot of people do spread a lot of lies about Gelugpa out of sectarianism. The Gelugs have been accused of destroying Jonang Monastery on sectarian grounds, stealing the Panchen Lama and Tarantha's seat and many other ridiculous rumors. These kind of rubbish surface from time to time, so just ignore them.

 It's pretty much obvious that they did not say such statements out of good faith. Logically if someone knows you're into Je Tsongkhapa, he or she would not say such things to you. You need to be alert.

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

Man, the thing about our human deluded mind is that, when people now you are into Je Tsongkhapa, they really start to do such things in order to have some kind of malicious fun... frankly, I do not understand this kind of thing, of sarcastic humor on others faith... that is bizarre and cause of suffering for both...

Thank you and look foward for your answer...
Plinio Tsai

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

Did you find something?
I did not found nothing! I think the affirmation was very false one... what do you think?

Plinio Tsai

[Joey]

Hi Joey

Did you find something?
I did not found nothing! I think the affirmation was very false one... what do you think?

Plinio Tsai

so far, I havent been able to meet up with any seniors who are knowledgable on this. but what I do know is this: Je Rinpoche may have expelled monks, yes, but monks that are not in accordance with the monastic rules or monks that are not really practicing. In other words, monks that deserve to be expelled. Do you honestly think Je Tsongkhapa would expel monks for personal gain? To put this incident in a negative light is pretty much strange because if Je Rinpoche didint expel those monks (assuming that he did) the monastic order wouldnt have been what it is today. What happens if you let delinquents remain in a famous, high class school? The school goes down to ruins and the rest of the students cannot study. so the logic here is the same.

Sometimes, it's better to use logic and reasoning rather than just hearsay. It also shows you just how much real faith you have in Je Tsongkhapa and how strong is your practice.

additional words by David:
Anyways, just ignore things like that, along with all the huge soap operas that surface from time to time and focus on your practice! This is dharma not some gossip column! These things has got nothing to do with your practice. Be stable in what you do. Focus on learning. What you're doing is just indulging in the political side of things. Because political side of learning will create more and more doubts even the Buddhas can be brought down to a demon

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

You said: "so the logic here is the same". But we cannot say that, can we? The Bodhisattva logic is not that. The 7th root downfall of the Bodhisattva's vows states clearly it is not to expell monks. So Je Riponche have reasons for do the expeling that is beyong our common sense, so the logic is not that clear here... But I think that the monks that were expeled probabilly had broken their vows and did not want to regret their acts, this is why they get expeled, that is what, to me, is more logic...

I honestly think you should not think the way you said "It also shows you just how much real faith you have in Je Tsongkhapa and how strong is your practice". It only means you are judging without any prove or worst judging by make assumptions, hipothesis and believing on it... If you want to go this go, just go, but is my duty to advice you that real bodhisattva trainees look strongly for good qualities and judge others in a base of non-critiscim...

And David: before you say I'm thinking as this forum as a "gossip column" you should ask first why I'm asking this, or do you have clairvoyance already? If you have, then it is better to check again... "indulging in political side of things", not at all! I think we should be very clear that politics is a need of society. I never saw HE Tsem Tulku saying that is not true, if I remeber he said that people who deals with politics have to act twice in bodhisattva way. Another thing - look to HH XIV Dalai Lama, is he not political? He is from feet to top of the head involved into politics to benefit people - so I dont think politics or political side is wrong, as I said it is a social need and it is the base in which society is constructed...

I asked a simple question, relating to some help to a friend that is need because he is a monk and have to face difficulties and what I got was a moral advice that does not help me at all...

As HH Dalai Lama said "when people judge you low, be happy because they are helping you to not be arrogant"

Do thank you Joey and David

Plinio Tsai 

[Joey]

Hi Joey

You said: "so the logic here is the same". But we cannot say that, can we? The Bodhisattva logic is not that. The 7th root downfall of the Bodhisattva's vows states clearly it is not to expell monks. So Je Riponche have reasons for do the expeling that is beyong our common sense, so the logic is not that clear here... But I think that the monks that were expeled probabilly had broken their vows and did not want to regret their acts, this is why they get expeled, that is what, to me, is more logic...

I honestly think you should not think the way you said "It also shows you just how much real faith you have in Je Tsongkhapa and how strong is your practice". It only means you are judging without any prove or worst judging by make assumptions, hipothesis and believing on it... If you want to go this go, just go, but is my duty to advice you that real bodhisattva trainees look strongly for good qualities and judge others in a base of non-critiscim...

And David: before you say I'm thinking as this forum as a "gossip column" you should ask first why I'm asking this, or do you have clairvoyance already? If you have, then it is better to check again... "indulging in political side of things", not at all! I think we should be very clear that politics is a need of society. I never saw HE Tsem Tulku saying that is not true, if I remeber he said that people who deals with politics have to act twice in bodhisattva way. Another thing - look to HH XIV Dalai Lama, is he not political? He is from feet to top of the head involved into politics to benefit people - so I dont think politics or political side is wrong, as I said it is a social need and it is the base in which society is constructed...

I asked a simple question, relating to some help to a friend that is need because he is a monk and have to face difficulties and what I got was a moral advice that does not help me at all...

As HH Dalai Lama said "when people judge you low, be happy because they are helping you to not be arrogant"

Do thank you Joey and David

Plinio Tsai 

If I did not care I wouldnt have replied, ditto. If I didint care I would have agreed with you and say things that you want to hear. I would not have replied. Do you see other people replying?

Of course you never heard Rinpoche mention that because there wasnt a need to. But in private he often tells his students to ignore political situations like the shudgen issue and so forth. Politics is a social need but to indulge and dabble in it is a diffrent story. The Dalai Lama isnt political. Political here means indulging in the flaws of others with the intent of creating schism.

I'm not giving moral advice, one of the main things in tantric practice is to mantain a pure view of your Guru and see him as a Buddha, if you cannot even see Je Tsongkhapa as one, how could you see your Guru as one? When you or your friend encounter questions like these, if that person is from Gelugpa, it shows that the person lacks faith and understands little about the Lamrim. If it comes from someone who is not a buddhist, or not from Gelugpa, it usually comes with a sectarian agenda. It might be out of curiousity or lack of understanding about who Je Tsongkhapa is, there are many possibilities.

And honestly, I dont remember reading expelling monks as the downfall of one of the bodhisatwa vows. In that case, many mahayana abbots across china would have incurred on this downfall, and so have the great master Hsuan Hua. Also, if that is the case, that monks cannot be expelled, then the pratimoksha rules are basically useless because the monks can do whatever they want and get away with it.

And pilino, your ego is showing. just a friendly reminder =)

[dave mcb]

 hi guys, taking away saffron robes is a downfall but its all about motivation remember,i wish you well -dave

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey and Dave

Joey, the fact that I asked does NOT mean I do not believe Je Riponche is a Buddha, and besides Buddha Shakyamuni said to not believe in his words and not believe in him just because of he is a Buddha, but to believe because his words really bring happiness and relief from sufferings... The fact is undeniable, Je Riponche is a Buddha.
How do I come to realize this? Well, I tried to do somethings he did, like to do millions of prostations in such a short time, that is just impossible to a regular human being. Why? The knees does not support the amount of effort, but there is several testimonials of people from other traditions at the time that said Je Riponche actually did the prostrations for real, and I believe in them... I would be necessary to have an abnormal power of concentration to do such a thing!  And there is much more reasons to me to believe he is a Buddha, such as the Dharma he did teach...
My question is more related to the fact that if the monks brake their vows and did not have the intention or the motivation to correct their mistakes, then, I think, it is possible to do the expelling without break any vow. I just want a confirmation on this hypotesis....
Dave, I think you are right, but there is question here: when I can know that my motivation is not just an excuse to me to do whatever I want? What is the parameter to discovery when it is a pure motivation and when it is not?

Thank you for the advice Joey, I will try better to "offer the others the victory and take upon myself the defeat".

Plinio Tsai

[Joey]

Hi Joey and Dave

Joey, the fact that I asked does NOT mean I do not believe Je Riponche is a Buddha, and besides Buddha Shakyamuni said to not believe in his words and not believe in him just because of he is a Buddha, but to believe because his words really bring happiness and relief from sufferings... The fact is undeniable, Je Riponche is a Buddha.
How do I come to realize this? Well, I tried to do somethings he did, like to do millions of prostations in such a short time, that is just impossible to a regular human being. Why? The knees does not support the amount of effort, but there is several testimonials of people from other traditions at the time that said Je Riponche actually did the prostrations for real, and I believe in them... I would be necessary to have an abnormal power of concentration to do such a thing!  And there is much more reasons to me to believe he is a Buddha, such as the Dharma he did teach...
My question is more related to the fact that if the monks brake their vows and did not have the intention or the motivation to correct their mistakes, then, I think, it is possible to do the expelling without break any vow. I just want a confirmation on this hypotesis....
Dave, I think you are right, but there is question here: when I can know that my motivation is not just an excuse to me to do whatever I want? What is the parameter to discovery when it is a pure motivation and when it is not?

Thank you for the advice Joey, I will try better to "offer the others the victory and take upon myself the defeat".

Plinio Tsai

as far as I know, higher vows override lower vows when there is a need to do so.

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

How you can tell when there is a need and not? And how do you know what is a higher vow and a lower vow, what is the criteria or parameter that you use to judge this?

Another question: how do you know when your ego is showing? And how do you know that, when you are judging other people by telling them that their egos is showing, your ego is not showing too?

[Joey]

Hi Joey

How you can tell when there is a need and not? And how do you know what is a higher vow and a lower vow, what is the criteria or parameter that you use to judge this?

Another question: how do you know when your ego is showing? And how do you know that, when you are judging other people by telling them that their egos is showing, your ego is not showing too?

Take the first precept for example. If a deranged psychopath is going to murder 10 people, and there is no way to restrain him, and the only way is to kill him for the greater good, that is a valid reason to break the 1st precept. Do remember that the precepts are not commandments, it's try not to kill. Higher Vow and Lower Vow? vows are actually like a mold or scaffolding, you only use them to train your mind. When your mind reaches a higher state, whether keeping them or not does not make a diffrence. You have to remember many mahasiddas also "broke" their vows like Tilopa who had sexual union while he was still a monk, and Chandrakirti who used his psysic powers as a monk in a monastery. What does this tell you?

When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way, totally forgetting about logic and learning and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out. You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong. So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind. And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too.

Be mindful.

[sampa]

To remain mindful,this passage from the Shurangama can be a of help.All arising thoughts are dust and the accompanying emotions defilement.Do not suppress emotion,but rather recognise them as undesirable[and it will occur less often]From the non-self POV,just treat the changing emotions as weather in the mindscape and there is no ownership[no-self]Anger arise and fade as no person is holding on to it.By dropping,we do not allow continuity[lifespan]of the emotion.We know the sky is not blue ,but we are often caught offguard as the optical illusion is so realistic.Be mindful as all phenomena arise from the one mind[and return to it]

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey
Thank for the first time, it is really enlightening...

About the second part of yours. You said:

"When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way",
A: I did not felt that, it is about argues and not about feelings...

 "totally forgetting about logic and learning"
A: Sorry, does not agree here too. You should got to a Law Forum and watch some argumentation there. I believe your point of view will change about this...

 "and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out".
A: You do not have material to say this. Sorry, it is simple impossible to interpreted like this only basing on what I have said. That is simple an argue of effect.

 "You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong".
A: What I asked and answered is is about my doubts so I putting myself on a position of learning, therefore what you said does not apply again...

"So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind".
A: Again, you do not have elements to judge that... I have quoted the 8 verses, not you, so please, stop using my arguiment against me, you are using a basic technique  in the rethorical art...

 "And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too".
A: Irrelevant. Lets say, for example, that if everybody agrees that sexual miscondut is right than it means it is right?? Of course not...

Sorry matte, you have to do better than this to convince me that it is about my ego and not yours that is appearing on the answers. The way to do this is to give Dharma instead of somekind of gap or bias point of view... And dont take this as an offensive answer or anything like that. It is just rethorical way to put things and a method to you to help me, ok?

Thank you
Plinio Tsai

[Joey]

Hi Joey
Thank for the first time, it is really enlightening...

About the second part of yours. You said:

"When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way",
A: I did not felt that, it is about argues and not about feelings...

 "totally forgetting about logic and learning"
A: Sorry, does not agree here too. You should got to a Law Forum and watch some argumentation there. I believe your point of view will change about this...

 "and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out".
A: You do not have material to say this. Sorry, it is simple impossible to interpreted like this only basing on what I have said. That is simple an argue of effect.

 "You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong".
A: What I asked and answered is is about my doubts so I putting myself on a position of learning, therefore what you said does not apply again...

"So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind".
A: Again, you do not have elements to judge that... I have quoted the 8 verses, not you, so please, stop using my arguiment against me, you are using a basic technique  in the rethorical art...

 "And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too".
A: Irrelevant. Lets say, for example, that if everybody agrees that sexual miscondut is right than it means it is right?? Of course not...

Sorry matte, you have to do better than this to convince me that it is about my ego and not yours that is appearing on the answers. The way to do this is to give Dharma instead of somekind of gap or bias point of view... And dont take this as an offensive answer or anything like that. It is just rethorical way to put things and a method to you to help me, ok?

Thank you
Plinio Tsai

everybody can see your huge ego, except yourself. Oh well, that's all I can do. There's a reason why no one had the guts to reply to your posts, because you start off with an assumption that you're definetely right and when people tell you the answer that's opposite of what you expect, you bite back like you did in this entire thread.

frankly speaking your retorts make no head or tail with what I said, it's full of denial and your replies are not relevant at all to anything I said. No one can change your views whether or not they're right or wrong, so I think our dicussion ends here. There's nothing more to say. If you want to believe that Je Tsongkhapa broke his bodhisattva vows, its your take but on my side, I see him as a Buddha.

so you quoted the 8 verses, big deal. are you practicing it? or does one of the verses in your version go "when I am challenged with my faults exposed, I must defend and retort to protect my pride"? If it's the latter, you're practicing very well.

anyone who wants to continue can do so, but I wont be replying in this thread.