New Age and its misinterpretation on Je Tsongkhapa

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

I'm so sorry to read your message... I was not with the intention to offend you at all, it is about discussion only...

Easy to say to others to abandon their ego but hard to do when this have to apply to ourselves, right? I think that too... to me is difficult...

Instead of judging my faith in Je Tsongkhapa, why dont you remained in the Dharma teachings or analysis? Why point the finger on others faith or assume they do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa? Does it help them to generate more faith in him?

According to you if I say, as I DID : I do believe in Je Tsongkhapa (and it is not about my faith but a friend's problem)... you do not believe me.... then if I say : I do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa I would be liying to you... but perhaps you would be happy... so believe in what you want...


You said the reason others does not reply is that they saw my huge ego and then they are scared of replying? Dont you think it goes against compassion? Anyway if people like me, respect me or not, it will not keep me for Dharma practicing.... to expect the opposite would...

About my change of perspective or opinions... judge me whatever you want... I do not care....Just stop to act like an imature person (just because I did not agreed or understand your answer you flee...)... remember you are not Tsem Tulku and you do not have his skills and Dharma knowledge... just be yourself... are you already a Buddha?

Listen, it is your community, as you pointed out, they all are behind you and are supporting what you said... so right now, I'm ask for appologyze to you and people from this forum ... as long as I can see I'm being a obstacle to you and others ... so, I will just read the posts and I will no long comment anything here or any other post on the Forum... although I really enjoy be part of it and read and participate on this because of the people and this include YOU!

I'm sorry again to have act as an obstacle to your Dharma practice and others ...

Plinio Tsai

[sampa]

Do not dwell in good or bad and differences disappear and even to agree is not possible.All is within one mind.

[Joey]

Hi Joey

I'm so sorry to read your message... I was not with the intention to offend you at all, it is about discussion only...

Easy to say to others to abandon their ego but hard to do when this have to apply to ourselves, right? I think that too... to me is difficult...

Instead of judging my faith in Je Tsongkhapa, why dont you remained in the Dharma teachings or analysis? Why point the finger on others faith or assume they do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa? Does it help them to generate more faith in him?

According to you if I say, as I DID : I do believe in Je Tsongkhapa (and it is not about my faith but a friend's problem)... you do not believe me.... then if I say : I do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa I would be liying to you... but perhaps you would be happy... so believe in what you want...


You said the reason others does not reply is that they saw my huge ego and then they are scared of replying? Dont you think it goes against compassion? Anyway if people like me, respect me or not, it will not keep me for Dharma practicing.... to expect the opposite would...

About my change of perspective or opinions... judge me whatever you want... I do not care....Just stop to act like an imature person (just because I did not agreed or understand your answer you flee...)... remember you are not Tsem Tulku and you do not have his skills and Dharma knowledge... just be yourself... are you already a Buddha?

Listen, it is your community, as you pointed out, they all are behind you and are supporting what you said... so right now, I'm ask for appologyze to you and people from this forum ... as long as I can see I'm being a obstacle to you and others ... so, I will just read the posts and I will no long comment anything here or any other post on the Forum... although I really enjoy be part of it and read and participate on this because of the people and this include YOU!

I'm sorry again to have act as an obstacle to your Dharma practice and others ...

Plinio Tsai

Dicussion? Oh, dont make me laugh. Nitpicking and attacking me with lawyer-style words dont consititute as discussion.

I did not judge your faith in Je Tsongkhapa. But if you did have faith such a question will not arise and you would have been able to answer it accordingly. Isnt that simple? Such a question already shows a lot. Can a Buddha transgress vows? Lama Tsongkhapa is a Buddha. When you insist that he did, even after lots of explainations (which you didint see, out of the many long posts the only words you could see was "Joey is judging your faith in Lama Tsongkhapa") what are you implying? Just ask your friend that. But instead you felt like I was judging your faith which I did not. I was just pointing the obvious.

Not everyone is THAT compassionate to go on a head-on collison with someone's ego. You think I love to argue? you think I love to say things like that? In fact, every time I say things like that I'm afraid that I'd hurt the feelings of some people or scare certain people away. But if i do not say it in this way, are you gonna listen? I'd love to ignore this thread and delete it because it gives a bad impression to new people who read about Lama Tsongkhapa as well, but it wont benefit you at all. I even asked some of the speakers for the beginner's buddhist classes for the answer and when I got them, I posted it here. too bad you missed the whole message and all you saw was that I was judging your faith.

I'm not fleeing because you do not agree, I'm fleeing because you somehow or rather turned it into a meaningless debate and I dont see the point of replying if you're not listening. I'm not Rinpoche nor am I the Buddha, but I have learnt many tricks up my sleeve from Rinpoche and his talks so I know how to deal with certain situations.

Not everyone in this forum is behind me, this is not my community this is everyone's community, including yours. I'm just here to keep things in order. You're not an obstacle to anyone. In fact, you help train me to deal with certain people so I am thankful for that.

Instead of not posting, why not change, be more humble and post? Wouldnt that be more intelligent? Dont let your actions contradict what you say.

Just keep posting. I'm not good in arguements so you win.

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

Before I start to talk to you, let me put this note:

To people who read this: JE TSONGKHAPA IS A BUDDHA! You do not have to question this! But if you do, here is how you get out of this: look for the events on Je Tsongkhapa life and also to his writtings, it speaks all by itself! You will get the same conclusion that I got: HE IS A BUDDHA! On the New Age  moviment, they got Je Tsongkhapa teachings and life events and DISTORTED it or interpretated it on their own views IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN DOGMAS.  But if you act as someone that goes to the source texts, you will see how distorted it was by some New Age authors...


Now, Joey, let me start over, ok?

Here was the situation: In my city there is only one Dharma Center and belongs to NKT. Inside there is only one monk. We are friends. He asked me what I would do if someone asks about Je Tsongkhapa expelling monks (that was happening to him... people from New Age come to visit his Center and ask this kind of questions...). I replied I did not know, but I would ask to people I knew know the answer: Kechara Online Team...

Then I asked and in some point I let the things to become somekind of Inquisition on me: "If you ask this it is because you do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa, you do not believe he is a Buddha!".  Actually, you believing me or not, I never questioned this, I just put attention on Je Tsongkhapa behaviour and texts and got the conclusion he is a Buddha.....

What I was insisting is on the appearnce that Je Tsongkhapa did broke his vow. But as I said APPEARANCE not reality!!! Why? People, New Age sect around here, insists on the poor monk on this point - if he is a Buddha, then how he could do that??

I came to his aid, to try to find an answer that was able to pacify the mind of this people... Although I'm not NKT anymore, I still have to fullfill the bodhisattva training and keep the vows I have promissed, right?

To me the answer is: because the people he expeled were NO monks! They were just acting as monks but in reality they already have broken their commitements and they do not want to regret ... But, Joey, you can see how my argument here is weak, so I asked - you are right - I put pression on you - to answer me so I could have more arguments to pacify the minds of this people.... I came to conclusion that you could help me by reading the posts on this Forum... This is not because I have doubt on Je Tsongkhapa or want to create a division on the Sangha of Kechara House... lets say I was noneve and did not perceive that my question could wake up doubts on people... I'm really sorry for that... Please, give me credit here, it was NOT my intention to produce doubts or make people lost their faith... I will be more mindfull, as you have point out, in the next time...

Also, I'm sorry to make you feel I was attacking you... it is just I'm on the middle of law everyday and it gets inside me like oil... so sorry for cause this kind of inconvenience to you... About I win - believe me, it was not my intention to win or loose, it was just help others, particularly the monk- but as you could see clearly I'm still very ignorant and also I'm still very conditionated by the environment I live ...

But now, could you help me to make my arguments more strong in order to help people around here and the monk, please?

Thank you very much and sorry for the long post...

[Joey]

Hi Joey

Before I start to talk to you, let me put this note:

To people who read this: JE TSONGKHAPA IS A BUDDHA! You do not have to question this! But if you do, here is how you get out of this: look for the events on Je Tsongkhapa life and also to his writtings, it speaks all by itself! You will get the same conclusion that I got: HE IS A BUDDHA! On the New Age  moviment, they got Je Tsongkhapa teachings and life events and DISTORTED it or interpretated it on their own views IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN DOGMAS.  But if you act as someone that goes to the source texts, you will see how distorted it was by some New Age authors...


Now, Joey, let me start over, ok?

Here was the situation: In my city there is only one Dharma Center and belongs to NKT. Inside there is only one monk. We are friends. He asked me what I would do if someone asks about Je Tsongkhapa expelling monks (that was happening to him... people from New Age come to visit his Center and ask this kind of questions...). I replied I did not know, but I would ask to people I knew know the answer: Kechara Online Team...

Then I asked and in some point I let the things to become somekind of Inquisition on me: "If you ask this it is because you do not have faith in Je Tsongkhapa, you do not believe he is a Buddha!".  Actually, you believing me or not, I never questioned this, I just put attention on Je Tsongkhapa behaviour and texts and got the conclusion he is a Buddha.....

What I was insisting is on the appearnce that Je Tsongkhapa did broke his vow. But as I said APPEARANCE not reality!!! Why? People, New Age sect around here, insists on the poor monk on this point - if he is a Buddha, then how he could do that??

I came to his aid, to try to find an answer that was able to pacify the mind of this people... Although I'm not NKT anymore, I still have to fullfill the bodhisattva training and keep the vows I have promissed, right?

To me the answer is: because the people he expeled were NO monks! They were just acting as monks but in reality they already have broken their commitements and they do not want to regret ... But, Joey, you can see how my argument here is weak, so I asked - you are right - I put pression on you - to answer me so I could have more arguments to pacify the minds of this people.... I came to conclusion that you could help me by reading the posts on this Forum... This is not because I have doubt on Je Tsongkhapa or want to create a division on the Sangha of Kechara House... lets say I was noneve and did not perceive that my question could wake up doubts on people... I'm really sorry for that... Please, give me credit here, it was NOT my intention to produce doubts or make people lost their faith... I will be more mindfull, as you have point out, in the next time...

Also, I'm sorry to make you feel I was attacking you... it is just I'm on the middle of law everyday and it gets inside me like oil... so sorry for cause this kind of inconvenience to you... About I win - believe me, it was not my intention to win or loose, it was just help others, particularly the monk- but as you could see clearly I'm still very ignorant and also I'm still very conditionated by the environment I live ...

But now, could you help me to make my arguments more strong in order to help people around here and the monk, please?

Thank you very much and sorry for the long post...

thank you for giving me the whole picture, Pilino. It's easier for me to understand what's going on and I'm sorry for jumping into conclusions.

If "new age" people pose questions like that, give them logic. lots of them. ask your monk friend to ask them "would it be logical to throw out delinquents from a famous school to preserve the school's reputation and so that the students will have a save enviroment?" because monks with broken vows, or do not keep the vows, or are ignorant of them are dangerous to other monks. Secondly, ask those people if they ever read the lamrim, or see how much dharma work that Lama Tsongkhapa has done, and ask them is it possible someone like that can break vows? If they do not know how vows work, explain to them that higher vows can override lower vows, when the need arises. There are many examples of how tantric masters "broke" lower vows, Tilopa is a very famous example where he performed intercourse while he was still a monk which lead him to enlightement. Chandrakiriti used his physic powers as a monk, in a monastery out of compassion for the cows.

Also, explain how Lama Tsongkhapa is universally respected and held in high esteem as an emanation of Padmasambhava by all traditions of tibetan buddhism, so what makes them think they can nitpick on Lama Tsongkhapa? What are their intentions? is it out of sectarianism?

Also, why are they asking something like that? what are their intentions? if it is out of ignornance, educate them about Lama Tsongkhapa. If they insist that Lama Tsongkhapa is in the wrong, ask them how much do they know about buddhism because go into any tradition and Lama Tsongkhapa's qualities are highly respected.

[Plinio Tsai]

Hi Joey

I'm the one who is sorry to not give to you early the full picture... All this discussion appeared due to my lack of wisdom... Anyway, thank you very much for your answer, and I will try give the advice to the monk... If anything happen I will report to you so we can think thogether what is the best solution to this problem... thank you again for being compassionate towards me and the monk...

Thank you and Kechara House Online Team
Plinio Tsai

[sampa]

However huge is a storm,it will blow over as its energy is released.Similarly pent up karmic energy must be discharged.Like in a storm we must not view it as caused by somebody,but a natural process of energy transfomation.One must not drift with the storm.View the whole thing as a silent witness confident,that calm is the nature that all will return.All the joyful and tragic event that appear in the mirror,does not affect the mirror.Our buddha nature is a 3-D mirror in which the world and universe is reflected.Annatta is the powerful dharma door to this 'great mirror wisdom'We are all one[Reality].In seperation[Ignorence]we suffer foolishly.When we realised our oneness,we see through the mirage natur4e of samsara.We are then in this world ,but not of the world[mirage]

[spiritnoname]

Hi Joey

How you can tell when there is a need and not? And how do you know what is a higher vow and a lower vow, what is the criteria or parameter that you use to judge this?

Another question: how do you know when your ego is showing? And how do you know that, when you are judging other people by telling them that their egos is showing, your ego is not showing too?

Take the first precept for example. If a deranged psychopath is going to murder 10 people, and there is no way to restrain him, and the only way is to kill him for the greater good, that is a valid reason to break the 1st precept. Do remember that the precepts are not commandments, it's try not to kill. Higher Vow and Lower Vow? vows are actually like a mold or scaffolding, you only use them to train your mind. When your mind reaches a higher state, whether keeping them or not does not make a diffrence. You have to remember many mahasiddas also "broke" their vows like Tilopa who had sexual union while he was still a monk, and Chandrakirti who used his psysic powers as a monk in a monastery. What does this tell you?

When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way, totally forgetting about logic and learning and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out. You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong. So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind. And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too.

Be mindful.

Kill a psychopath who will kill 10 people and who is unrestrainable? That sounds good on the surface. But if you killed someone out of attachment and aversion like that, I can't imagine much good coming from that.  How many times have we used this excuse? How many times have we hurt another out of fear? How many times have we been killed because someone feared us? I'm not saying killing the psychopath isn't something you should do, just watch your motivation, if it's out anger or fear you're not helping anyone, just planting seeds for more suffering.

[sampa]

Spiritnoname
       You have tame your ego sufficiently.Have it occur to you[if you still have one]to drop it TOTALLY.Yes EGOLESS of Being and Dharma.The Lotus Sutra say it ALL.

[Joey]

Hi Joey

How you can tell when there is a need and not? And how do you know what is a higher vow and a lower vow, what is the criteria or parameter that you use to judge this?

Another question: how do you know when your ego is showing? And how do you know that, when you are judging other people by telling them that their egos is showing, your ego is not showing too?

Take the first precept for example. If a deranged psychopath is going to murder 10 people, and there is no way to restrain him, and the only way is to kill him for the greater good, that is a valid reason to break the 1st precept. Do remember that the precepts are not commandments, it's try not to kill. Higher Vow and Lower Vow? vows are actually like a mold or scaffolding, you only use them to train your mind. When your mind reaches a higher state, whether keeping them or not does not make a diffrence. You have to remember many mahasiddas also "broke" their vows like Tilopa who had sexual union while he was still a monk, and Chandrakirti who used his psysic powers as a monk in a monastery. What does this tell you?

When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way, totally forgetting about logic and learning and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out. You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong. So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind. And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too.

Be mindful.

Kill a psychopath who will kill 10 people and who is unrestrainable? That sounds good on the surface. But if you killed someone out of attachment and aversion like that, I can't imagine much good coming from that.  How many times have we used this excuse? How many times have we hurt another out of fear? How many times have we been killed because someone feared us? I'm not saying killing the psychopath isn't something you should do, just watch your motivation, if it's out anger or fear you're not helping anyone, just planting seeds for more suffering.

well, uh, it's an example that was given by a dharma speaker in Kechara House, Mr Ngeow. Also, in many stories, there are many examples of Guru Rinpoche re-iterating the same thing. If you read Milarepa's story, Marpa asked Milarepa to kill a group of bandits for the benefit of many.

I know that the very same excuse has been used by bush to wage wars and cause the deaths of many innocent people, but it is not always in that case.

And Sampa, you should really stop sucking up to people whose ideology fits your expectation.

[spiritnoname]

Spiritnoname
       You have tame your ego sufficiently.Have it occur to you[if you still have one]to drop it TOTALLY.Yes EGOLESS of Being and Dharma.The Lotus Sutra say it ALL.

 My ego is definitely not tamed I'm sorry to say

[spiritnoname]

Hi Joey

How you can tell when there is a need and not? And how do you know what is a higher vow and a lower vow, what is the criteria or parameter that you use to judge this?

Another question: how do you know when your ego is showing? And how do you know that, when you are judging other people by telling them that their egos is showing, your ego is not showing too?

Take the first precept for example. If a deranged psychopath is going to murder 10 people, and there is no way to restrain him, and the only way is to kill him for the greater good, that is a valid reason to break the 1st precept. Do remember that the precepts are not commandments, it's try not to kill. Higher Vow and Lower Vow? vows are actually like a mold or scaffolding, you only use them to train your mind. When your mind reaches a higher state, whether keeping them or not does not make a diffrence. You have to remember many mahasiddas also "broke" their vows like Tilopa who had sexual union while he was still a monk, and Chandrakirti who used his psysic powers as a monk in a monastery. What does this tell you?

When you feel the need to defend yourself in a very drastic and coarse way, totally forgetting about logic and learning and only caring about your own feelings when you get challenged that is when your ego is out. You were extremely defensive and hurt by the words by David (by the way, the gossip magazine was added by me, the rest was his verbose words) because it puts you in a wrong and you do not want to be wrong. So you try to defend yourself instead of practicing the 8 verses of transforming the mind. And its not something that only I alone can detect, many people can too.

Be mindful.

Kill a psychopath who will kill 10 people and who is unrestrainable? That sounds good on the surface. But if you killed someone out of attachment and aversion like that, I can't imagine much good coming from that.  How many times have we used this excuse? How many times have we hurt another out of fear? How many times have we been killed because someone feared us? I'm not saying killing the psychopath isn't something you should do, just watch your motivation, if it's out anger or fear you're not helping anyone, just planting seeds for more suffering.

well, uh, it's an example that was given by a dharma speaker in Kechara House, Mr Ngeow. Also, in many stories, there are many examples of Guru Rinpoche re-iterating the same thing. If you read Milarepa's story, Marpa asked Milarepa to kill a group of bandits for the benefit of many.

I know that the very same excuse has been used by bush to wage wars and cause the deaths of many innocent people, but it is not always in that case.

And Sampa, you should really stop sucking up to people whose ideology fits your expectation.

Joey, I'm under the impression that you are not Milarepa. And if you killed a group of bandits I expect it would be due to your preference for one kind of person over another and for people you're attached to to be happier, not because you want liberation from preference.

I don't know who Mr. Ngeow is, in what context he told his story, or if you have retained the message he was trying to send to you, but if you were to go on a killing spree, killing everyone who ever threatened you or anyone you loved, you would not be held up as high as Milarepa for that.

[spiritnoname]

Dear spiritnoname,

Everyone knows that Joey is not Milarepa!!! 

He is the administrator of this forum, not doing meditation retreat he should be like Milarepa, find a cave to meditate, maybe also to practise Tum-mo.

Your post is like suggesting Joey wants to become professional killer, he seem to be a ruthless man to you and enjoy killing? wohahaha.... No lah, he is not a ruthless man to me.

take care and have a nice weekend.

best regards,
Loafer.

You can't tell a person's character until they are tested. If Joey was put to it, he says it would be justified to kill a psychopath in such a situation, so it follows that he would kill anyone who threatened him in the same way. He wouldn't kill psychos who aren't a threat, so it's not that someone is psycho, it's that they threaten him. Killing someone because they threaten you, that doesn't sound so bad right? But we know it is bad, because what happens in this social world when one person is willing to kill another over a threat is that one person becomes a threat, and more people find justification to kill.

You can kill a psychopath with compassion I think, then maybe it won't turn out bad.  But Joey didn't talk about killing a psychopathic murderer with compassion, he talked about killing a psychopath with fear. I think the reason we do things is more important than what we do ultimately.

This is all just what I think.   

[sampa]

There is no good or bad,thinking make it so.Thinking is the Ego mind and it must be subdued by skillful ways of religeous practice,including taking precepts.For one to benefit from buddhism,we must have faith in Lord Buddha's teaching on Annatta.Ego is the single biggest obstacle to seeing prajna.

[Joey]

You can't tell a person's character until they are tested. If Joey was put to it, he says it would be justified to kill a psychopath in such a situation, so it follows that he would kill anyone who threatened him in the same way. He wouldn't kill psychos who aren't a threat, so it's not that someone is psycho, it's that they threaten him. Killing someone because they threaten you, that doesn't sound so bad right? But we know it is bad, because what happens in this social world when one person is willing to kill another over a threat is that one person becomes a threat, and more people find justification to kill.

You can kill a psychopath with compassion I think, then maybe it won't turn out bad.  But Joey didn't talk about killing a psychopathic murderer with compassion, he talked about killing a psychopath with fear. I think the reason we do things is more important than what we do ultimately.

This is all just what I think.   

okay...so that was how you intepreted it. I was talking about killing a psychopath so that less people would die. out of compassion. You're finally at where I wanted you to be, although your impression of me is a bit off. Firstly, it's just an example, and secondly, I'd rather be killed than to kill the psychopath.

The first thing we're taught in buddhism is actually to mantain a pure view and only see the good, and only take that as an example for our practice. If you are able to do just that, you can even be better than me in terms of dharma because yuo have a very sharp mind.

 You're really good with nitpicking with words and I'm really bad with words. Maybe you can help me doublecheck my posts to see if they can me misintepreted by some individuals.