GURU-STUDENT RELATIONSHIP

[desufnoc]

anyone watched the GURU-STUDENT RELATIONSHIP video?
what if your guru try to touch you, e.g. a male guru trying to touch a female diciple's breasts or other body parts? is that a 'test'? Should we have absolutly no doubts and trust your guru no matter what?
any comments? by the way, does anyone know if we could ask tsemtulku questions thru here?

Thanks.

[Joey]

you might want to read this

excerpt from An Open Letter to Beginning Vajrayana Students by Chim? Ch?shing

The teacher

The lama is central to the path in Vajrayana Buddhism. One may study and practice with several lamas in one life, or only one. It is best not to commit to a single teacher too quickly; traditionally, the mutual examination of lama and prospective disciple lasted for years before a full commitment was made by either, and much can be learned in that time. Since it is usually possible to hear a lama teachings and see how he or she interacts with students for quite a while before complete commitment is expected, meeting many teachers and experiencing the ways they teach can aid a student in deciding which of them may be suited to his own capabilities and interests. The different schools of Tibetan Buddhism vary significantly in their emphases, and even within these schools individual teachers may have different priorities. If what a student is looking for in Buddhism is not something that a particular student is concerned with, the student may be disappointed and feel he has wasted his time. A teacher or his students will probably be happy to talk about his tradition and what makes it unique. Beware, however, those who claim their own tradition to be the only authentic representative of the Buddha teaching.
On the other hand, sooner or later it may be necessary to commit to one teacher or tradition. Our human lives are short, and if one doesn make a commitment, he or she may never gain instruction in the more profound aspects of Vajrayana, and even if he does, he will not be able to profit from the close guidance and correction which is often necessary to really benefit from them. The student may remain a dilettante, collecting teachings and empowerments as if they were new hats, and practicing according to whim. There are many students like this in the modern West.

Nevertheless, it has always been considered very important to examine a teacher qualities before entering the Vajrayana path, and this is especially true when the teachings are new in a culture, as is the case in the West. A traditional saying in Tibet is that, while going to a bad doctor can kill you, following a bad lama can cause problems in the next life as well. It also should be realized that rejecting a lama for whatever reason after one has made a serious commitment will definitely cause great difficulties in one subsequent spiritual training. Not a few Westerners have come to grief through a careless approach in committing to a teacher.

It is usual in Tibetan Buddhism that a prospective teacher goes through some sort of formal qualifying process, or receives teaching authority from their own lama. Unfortunately, inflated credentials and outright fraud are now a common part of Vajrayana in the West. The student should beware of people, both Tibetan and non-Tibetan, who claim teaching authority based on a close connection to a great lama who has either passed away or lives in a conveniently remote part of Asia. These days, investigating a teacher claims is easier than it once was, and the student should definitely take advantage of this.
Particular care is in order when dealing with those who lack formal qualifications but have in effect set themselves up as teachers, perhaps on the basis of various visions, powers, or meditative experiences they claim to have, or merely by virtue of being around Buddhism for a certain number of years. Such self-elected ?lamas?may even advertise for disciples, in magazines or on the Internet. Some of them may have charismatic qualities, and may have read enough of the Tibetan Buddhist literature (most often, in translation only) that they can put together a convincing sales talk. They may not be complete frauds: their involvement with Buddhism may be genuine, and they may even have had some sort of personally transformative experience through the practice. Still, it is useful to recall that legend has Gautama himself remaining silent after his awakening, until pressed to speak, and that the profound experiences of accomplished masters in Tibet were generally only recorded in secret biographies and not traded in the marketplace. With self-appointed teachers, it may be best to keep in mind the Asian proverb: Since we don know who is a Buddha and who is a swindler, we should respect everyone, but be mindful of our wallets.
In Tibetan Buddhism, tulkus, generally given the title of Rinpoche, are a particularly important institution. The term tulku is the Tibetan translation of the Buddhist Sanskrit nirmanakaya, which can refer to any manifestation in our world that aids sentient beings. A scripture says that when a suitable occasion has arrived, the nirmanakaya will appear wherever and for whomever it would be of benefit; an oasis in the desert could be a nirmanakaya. In the Tibetan tradition, however, a tulku is often assumed to be the rebirth of a being who attained some level of spiritual accomplishment in a former life. Most recognized tulkus in modern Tibetan culture are individuals whose special qualities were recognized early on in their lives, who have received a thorough course in religious training, and whose lives are fully dedicated to the preservation of the Dharma. These circumstances usually allow them to be superlative teachers. Still, the concept of realized beings occurring in a succession of sequential human lives appears to be a peculiarity of the Buddhism of Tibet and Mongolia, and need not be accepted blindly. Seen from an historical perspective, the institution of tulku recognition spread more and more widely when not only its religious but also its political and economic advantages were perceived. Tulkus have never been accepted unquestioningly in Tibet. The great yogi Milarepa allegedly resisted being labeled as one, claiming that to acknowledge the title would be to exempt his disciples from following in his path of great spiritual effort. Even as accomplished a scholar as the 19th_century master Jamgon Kongtrul recognized the political motivations behind his selection as a tulku, and past controversies surrounding the selection of the Dalai Lama, as well as the recent one concerning the Karmapa, show that the question of a tulku authenticity is always in the background. Since the introduction of Vajrayana to the West, the title has been cheapened even further, and outright impostors are not uncommon. Even in the cases of tulkus recognized by genuine authorities, however, the title alone should not short-circuit the process of examining the teacher.

Beginning students should also be aware that, in some schools of Tibetan Buddhism, people wearing robes and cutting their hair short are not necessarily celibate monks or nuns; if having a celibate teacher is important to you, this is something else to consider in choosing a lama. If the teacher is not celibate, it is not impossible that the question of sexual relations between student and teacher may arise. This is a very subtle area, and it is hard to suggest any definite rules on the subject. At least, students should recognize their own motivations in sleeping with a teacher, and realize that doing so will not necessarily bring them any immediate spiritual benefits, or power and prestige, or even special consideration. Students should also know that refusing unwanted sexual advances is always an option. These cautions are also obviously in order when the teacher and student are of the same gender. The question of sexual-yogic practices will be discussed more below.

All these cautions about examination of a lama are not meant to be discouraging, or as a license to indulge in fault-finding ?they are simply meant as a warning. Western disciples have often fallen in love with a teacher ?vibration?or reputation, only to feel bitterly betrayed when he or she acts in a way the disciple believes is inappropriate. On the other hand, one should remember that few who dwell in the human realm do not exhibit some human characteristics, and demanding an ideal figure in a lama may merely demonstrate an emotional immaturity which seems to be very much at odds with the view and practice of the Vajrayana. A student who honestly analyzes the things that make him uncomfortable about a lama might learn much about his own mind, and through this examination gain valuable lessons from a teacher even if one ultimately decides not to follow him or her as one ultimate guide.

A final thought: Westerners should know that it is important not to be too familiar with a lama. If one addresses a lama with a genuine and urgent personal concern, he or she will [probably not mind giving advice and assistance to the best of his ability (although one should be prepared to hear unpleasant truths). Still, while motivated by the urge to aid all sentient beings, Buddhist teachers are not necessarily surrogate parents, psychoanalysts, marriage counselors, or pals. Those teacher who reside in the West have often learned to deal quite ably with the facile psychologizing and trivial self-involvement of many Western Buddhists, but this may not be the case among lamas from or in Asia.

[desufnoc]

hi

Thanks for the quote. I want to know others opinions when such thing happens. 

Would a 'living Buddha' do such thing without the consent of the other party? or may be just make up some 'reasons' for doing that? you don't know if it's true because you are still 'not awake'??

I'm not saying a teacher should always be perfect....but touching a diciple without consent or make up some 'reasons' for his behavior? I'm not too sure ....
If this is just an ordinary person, we already know what to do and there's no  need to discuss here.

I'd appreciate any comments on this matter.

Thanks a lot!

[Scott Hutton]

Ho Joey:

Who is Chim? Ch?shing?  That is SUCH an intelligent letter.  Are there more writings around?

Scott

[Joey]

hi

Thanks for the quote. I want to know others opinions when such thing happens. 

Would a 'living Buddha' do such thing without the consent of the other party? or may be just make up some 'reasons' for doing that? you don't know if it's true because you are still 'not awake'??

I'm not saying a teacher should always be perfect....but touching a diciple without consent or make up some 'reasons' for his behavior? I'm not too sure ....
If this is just an ordinary person, we already know what to do and there's no  need to discuss here.

I'd appreciate any comments on this matter.

Thanks a lot!

in short, a guru is not supposed to molest students. If he does, tell him that you do not feel comfortable. A guru may push a student's buttons, but this does not and never includes any activity of a sexual nature.

Gurus/Tulkus/Rinpoches are often translated as living buddhas in chinese, but the truth is the term tulku means emanation body and dosent carry the meaning of buddha.

Ho Joey:

Who is Chim? Ch?shing?  That is SUCH an intelligent letter.  Are there more writings around?

Scott

I got that letter from a few kind souls in e-sangha when I first started exploring vajrayana there, before they quickly dissappeared. I wonder if there is more.

[Scott Hutton]

Neither google nor answers.com returns any hits.  Well, at least we have that beautiful letter.

My first lama, by the way, went through the hideous trial of being accused of ordering one of his chelas to have sex with him.  She was married.  He was married.  I never believed  a word of it.  For years, as we sat in group meditation, she, being the most generous of sponsors, sat directly opposite him....legs spread, mini-skirt....and one suspected that wasn't much on under that skirt.  Her husband was one of those odd American husbands, suspiciously tolerant.  I never believed a word of it.

We, the lama and I never discussed it directly.  He alluded once or twice to how sad it was that certain relationships had been destroyed,  and that some people never called him any more, and I let on that I was for the most part in ignorance of the details, which I was, for, as far as I was concerned, there were no details.

Instead we discussed the Heart Sutra and got some laughs.

I think chela-guru molestation, even if it's just wannabe sex, is far more common than guru-chela molestation.  I think laying one's current frustrations and fantasies on the guru,  or asking him for samsaric advice is a step towards chela-guru molestation and one should have a care, rushing to a rimpoche to ask how to deal with a hangnail, or asking him for a divination of a problem one is perfectly capable of working out for oneself, one should have a great care before doing that.

As far as I'm concerned the guru is not there to talk to us about who we think we are; he is there to show us Who we are, and that is quite another process.

Scott

[sampa]

The entire buddhidt teaching[all schools] is to Show and point to that which we REALLY AM and wake up from who we think we are[mind-body of the five skandhas]In non-duality only bliss prevail[sat,sit,ananda]
The last sentence from Scotts say it all.It is either you get it or not.

[Joey]

I believe the topic poster is trying to get us to criticize a certain master of a certain tradition who claims he's a buddha based on the chinese translation of a tulku.

But for now, such marvellous summaries of what a Guru is for would suffice for anyone who reads this topic.

[Joey]

Hi

The question of CONFUSED, ops DESUFNOC, is a little bit strange... the guru touching the breasts of a student??? But how?? I mean, no one saw it? If other people saw it, then we have the testimonials and then we should go to find a Delegacy or a Police Station and do the proper charges, right? Why the Buddhas would act in this way in the 21st where there is the Law and Police Stations, or even back there in the past? And again, why a Buddha would do sexual molesting or arresting, in orde to teach? But even so, what would be the teachings? 

I dunno... it is a little bit too imaginative and guessing this questions, after all a real guru is based on tradition, on credibility and traditional institutions that, at least, garantees a little bit more than only "Hey, look, I'm a Buddha"... Besides if the guru starting to say odd things that is against social moral and ethics, then it is a fake, criminal person, that is not a real guru (obsviously), then we should run away from them, specially if they start to provoke more sufferings (alias that is a good sign to see if the person who proclaim himself as a guru is really a guru: if he decreases the mental afflictions of the students by way of efficient teachings that is not contradictory to the Pratikmosha, Vinaya, Bodhisattva and Trantric vows... or if he or she improves the mental afflicitions of any kind by means of fake attitudes and teachings that goes against any of this vows and the teachings of the previous teachers of the lineage (if there is a lineage, of course...))

   

now now, lets not get involved in the affairs that do not concern us. we're not on a crusade mission. you seem to be soooo passionate about this >_>

[Scott Hutton]

Jayzeus, Plinio - do your homework.  Your Guru-as-Good-Good theory knocks many classic figures right out of the bag:  Tilopa, Marpa, Padmasambhava, Bodhidharma...I could go on and on...and you certainly short circuit the venerable Nath tradition of India, which goes back into the mists of time, among whose chelas almost certainly once was a young ex-prince named Sidhartha, and to this day is producing holy ones who fit no mould.

If you want a Guru-Good-Good, I suggest you go out and buy a stuffed one.

Then prop it up somewhere and dust from time to time....and don't expect much more.

Scott

[Joey]

sigh. misconceptions and expectations of some people of how teachers should behave....

imagine if they encountered Tilopa. They'll need to go to the mental hospital.

[Scott Hutton]

I have a great thanka of Tilopa which I have hanging in this wierd-ass section of the apartment along with an oil portrait of my recently deceased parrot and a very primitive banged up Mexican tin painting of the Archangel Raphael.  It's lit by a halogen light.  Underneath is where the cat gets fed.  Nearby is a pile of rare American and English poetry books going back to the 1900's greatly in need of dusting...not too far away is the litter box.

I tried hanging the thanka in more well behaved parts of the apartment.  It just didn't work.  It was as though ol' T was looking at me and saying "What?  are you nuts? Get me outta here!"  Here in the wierd ass space he can do his thing and I just stay out of the way, though I look at that thanka a dozen times a day.  (Of course Vajrayogini is up at the top somewhere, as is only right - she's the one who clued him in.)

I don't think the Guru Good-Good people could get near Tilopa.  He'd probably turn into a Hell's angel...for their own good.  Or, morely likely, he'd just vanish.

Scott

[Joey]

Hi Scoot

hehehehee thanks man to remind me about the karma ehehehehe Sorry!!!

But you do not said anything about our time, I mean, perhaps today with all the law and so on, do you think that a guru would do such a thing that can be interpretated by its Sangha as sexual molestation? I honeslty do not know about it... But anyway, I'm not a guru, so I do not know... hehehehehe

But if there is not a gap in my memory, in Lam Rim text (Lam Rim Chen Mo) there is a part about the Qualifications of the Guru, there is a session about how to verify if one is a valid Guru or not, right? And there is not a point saying that he must have a perfect Vinaya conduct? And in order to have that, if he is a monk, he must not touch a woman out of desire or anything and there is a lot of similar things on the vows, right? And it does not imply that he should have a pure moral conduct innerly and outterly? Of course I'm not trying to teach the "Our father" to you Scoot, since you are a monk right? But I have this doubts and I would like to clarify this, if you could help me, I would appreciate so much... 

Thank you again man

Like I've said, the topic starter was trying to get us to criticize another tradition and you fell straight into it. Rules of the forum explicitly states that you are not allowed to criticize in any way. I know the name of the tradition she is referring to, but I'm not posting it, and if anyone posts it it will be taken down.

Oh Pilino!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought you were smarter than this!!!!!

[Plinio Tsai]

Oh I'm sorry!

I did not realize it is about this!!!!

Man, what is the problem with this people that keeping posting traps?
There was one post some guy did about the development of Kechara House and did a lot of mass also... I would like to understand this ... Why we keep seem things in a bases of competition including in Dharma? Why to see Dharma as a business and we have to compete and then post traps only to say "look to this, look to that"... to me, that is a tremendous not do to with my  time and also very evil deed... That is really sad!

We are supposed to abide in good faith when judge others, but since this kind of delusions are appearing, then I will no more abide in the principle of Good Faith...

Thanks for the tip Joey

[Scott Hutton]

I'm a monk??  Gawd, that slipped right by me.  No, I have a VERY active business life in Manhattan during the day and a very intense private life in Westchester County at night.  I worked very hard at one point in my life to help the Karmapa's monastery in America get off the ground but that was entirely a labor of love - I never for 4 minutes thought of living, or even dying, there.

A monk?  Me and my Big Yap?  One is shocked.

I am rooted in the old, unreformed Nyingma lineage - it is common for us to live as laymen in the world.  We love the monks and the monasteries but we are honest enough to confess that they're not for us.  Our karma leads elsewhere.

I am proud to say that some very fine monks have numbered among my Dharma brothers but there's where it ends.

Scott

(Oh, yes, seconding Joey:  distrust much people with an urge to discuss other people's sex lives, monastic or lay.  Were you there?  Were your tits touched?  My bet is no.  Therefore it's none of your business.  Going further, beware of the untouched tit - it can be the source of much gossip.)