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wmw111
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« on: February 20, 2009, 11:08:03 PM » |
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Hi all,
We just had Lam Rim class last night in KH and one of the questions covered was what is the real samsara? if samsara is not just one who migrates from lower to higher realms and etc , though it is correct usage of the word samsara .
What do you think?
BestWishes
Wai Meng
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'Fear is the absolute confusion between you and your projections'
'You are very preoccupied with getting what you want, so you will fail to see what is'
~ Chogyam Trungpa ~
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pummy369
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 01:34:11 AM » |
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Isn't samsara the state of your mind if you are not a Buddha? I think those other biengs who have no obscurations anymore but don't have Bodhicitta also have minds that are no longer in samara. So to me, Samsara represents our minds when we still have any obscurations and delusions or their stains and imprints. But the common use of the term is to represent some kind of a place that harmonizes with those delusuions, encourages them, feeds them. The design of samsara seems to be to make those delusions thrive. There seems to be no other way to go beyond, but to go through. We have to purify all of these delusions and stuff while we are in the midst of samsara, whose neon, flashing arrows are constantly pointing the other direction. Makes me think that renunciation must be harder in a Western country. It seems there are not so many flashing arrows pointing the other way in places like India and Nepal. Makes me then wonder if my karma really is good to be born in a Western country or not.
Samsara - it's what I am in right now or the state of my mind. That's my take on it so far.
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« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 01:36:51 AM by pummy369 »
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"It takes a wise man to understand that strength lies in a gentle hand."~Mary Ann Kennedy
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John
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 05:43:32 AM » |
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What if right now, in the present moment you feel happiness and peace? can you say that now you are in samsara just because sometime in the future you will feel sadness again?
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pummy369
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 01:23:13 AM » |
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I think that impermanence has to do with cause and effect/karma. Being happy today and sad tomorrow seems to be a good example of this. So, if you are in Nirvana, you are no longer subject to cause and effect as you have purified everything, delusions, their seeds, their imprints - no longer subject to impermanence. (There is something further here about obstructions to knowledge/Omniscience which is the diff. between an Arhat and a Buddha - but I may have it all wrong so I leave this bit out) .
Liberation and Enlightenment has to do with realising emptiness - this is the wisdom bit at least (there is a method bit too), which goes along with all this purifying and merit making which is also part of the process. Emptiness is permanent (apparantly) so, Nirvana must be permenant, once you 'get' there. If you are experiencing impermanence, I think you must be 'in' samsara. I am dusting off my brain but this is my basic and limited understanding. People more knowlegable in the Dharma, please comment so I am not misleading anyone.
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"It takes a wise man to understand that strength lies in a gentle hand."~Mary Ann Kennedy
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pummy369
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 11:31:08 PM » |
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My own post has got me scratching my head now. I wondered if you have attained Nirvana, realised emptiness, and this is a permanent then, are Buddhas permanent? I think they are but then the fact that Matraya Buddha will come in the future, gets me wondering what happens to Sakyamuni Buddha. Does he just go up to his particular heaven somewhere?
So the question really is are Buddhas permanant?
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"It takes a wise man to understand that strength lies in a gentle hand."~Mary Ann Kennedy
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ysng101
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 11:53:48 PM » |
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SAMSARA is the training ground for people to become buddhas.
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ysng101
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 12:02:01 AM » |
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Unfortunately the passing rate is not very good.
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pummy369
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 12:30:48 AM » |
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ysng - clever, sad and true. I really like that. SAMSARA is the training ground for people to become buddhas.
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"It takes a wise man to understand that strength lies in a gentle hand."~Mary Ann Kennedy
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ysng101
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 12:50:47 AM » |
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I'm afraid I'm not doing very well with my "training" ..
The ratio of gurus to students leaves much to be desired.. Not many would have the merits to be under a guru.
Samsara can be cold and lonely place sometimes.
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wmw111
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 09:17:50 AM » |
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Hi all,
I believe once you're enlightened , its not reversible anymore.
My answer to the question was 'Freedom from creating more sufferin . ' In the text Liberation in the Palm of your Hand it mentions, the real samsara is our contaminated aggregates ( body and mind ) and through this aggregates out of delusions and karma we create more karma/delusion to stay in samsara .
Buddha also aged ( undergoing impermanence ) does that mean he was still samsaric?
Western students have less baggage and preconceptions about how Buddhism is viewed, very analytical ( drawback could be over doing it ) than people who have Buddhism as part of their cultural outlook/ culture/history like the Chinese for example.
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'Fear is the absolute confusion between you and your projections'
'You are very preoccupied with getting what you want, so you will fail to see what is'
~ Chogyam Trungpa ~
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John
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 09:57:11 AM » |
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``All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation .``
I think this was Lord Buddha`s final advice.
So his body was subjected to impermanence but his mind was enlightened. I don`t think he was still samsaric, the people around him who suffered because his body got older and died were still in samsara because they did not understanded impermenence . Buddha knew that his body will get old and die but it not bothered his enlightened mind.
``So the question really is are Buddhas permanent?``
I think Buddhas don`t suffer if they become unpermanent. They are not attached on permanence, and that makes buddhas permanent.
Does that make sence?
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Ninje
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 12:39:30 PM » |
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Dear Friends, if i may,
In my opinion, Pummy, what you said are quite accurate based on your explanation on The State of Mind... but then you started to talk about 'Emptiness' and to question whether the 'Buddha' is permanent...
These are my points...
Both Samsara and Nirvana or Enlightenment (Buddha-hood) are a State of Mind.
At our level, what we perceived as 'Emptiness' are understandings based on our unenlightened minds. The Lamrim book explains that even a Bodhisattva that had developed Spontaneous Bodhicitta has only an Intellectual Understanding of Emptiness and has not yet realized emptiness directly. Emptiness can only be realized after the bodhisattva, supported by his/her bodhicitta motivation, meditates single-pointedly on emptiness to abandon all traces of Dualistic Appearence.
The Buddha that aged and experiencing impermanent conditions is His Enjoyment Body (Sambhoga-kaya). Buddha though experiencing all the conditions of an impermanent body, He did not suffer because His Mind already achieved Full Enlightenment and thus, He did not create anymore karma.
All actions done by a Buddha (His Body, Speech or Mind) are known as 'dharmas' because they are the 'truths'. Dharma = Truth.
Remember the 3 Bodies or 'Kayas' of a Buddha? Actually there are 4 types of Buddha's Body; they are:
1. Enjoyment Body (Sambhoga-kaya),
2. Emanation Body (Nirmana-kaya),
3. Wisdom Truth Body (Jhana-Dharma-kaya) and Nature Body (Svabhavika-kaya).
Lastly, Spartacus, if we are to read the Lamrim we will get that even the so-called 'happiness and peace' like you mentioned are sufferings in itself. Because they're also subject to impermanence. That is why the Lamrim has a details explanation of the meditation on 'True Sufferings' which includes the sufferings of Deva / gods realm. Beings in this realm enjoy happiness and peace but it is still a suffering.
Hopefully I'm not confusing more... haha...
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pummy369
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 08:07:23 AM » |
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I was not referring to this enjoyment body or the experience of impermanence Buddha had on his enjoyment body. Ha... I never even thought about the fact that Buddha had a physical body on earth after he became enlightened and that this suffered impermanence! See the things I learn here on this forum? Buddhism not being part of my upbringing or culture - I don't know enough about the actual historical Buddha. Maybe this is bad. Probably. But there are only so many hours in the day man and so much to learn!
The subject of the enjoyment body never entered my mind when I posted before on impermanence in enlightenment. So the Buddhas that are on the earth in human form, experience impermenacne to the enjoyment body. Of course makes sense. But because they are a Buddha, it doesn't really cause them suffering right? Or does it.... I mean if you believe HIS HOLINESS is a Buddha, he has physical pains and suffering on some level, as we all do. So, is there a different quality to this suffering when you are enlightened? Like, the suffering takes on a different quality cos you are enduring it while in the grip of Bodhicitta?
Ninje - your comment about Buddha not suffering with impermanence as his enjoyment body aged. Do you mean he did not feel pain, or that he just did not create further karma with his pain because it no longer affected his mind? To me, feeling pain is still suffering in the more common use of the word but not in the way it seems to be being used in your post and maybe within Buddhism in general.
Also, what is the diff between an emanation body and an enjoyment body? Can an emanation have a physical, solid, human form or is that then the enjoyment body only. If so, what is the emanation body? I have heard it said that 'such an such is an emanation of such and such'. Does this mean this is their emanation body we are seeing?
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"It takes a wise man to understand that strength lies in a gentle hand."~Mary Ann Kennedy
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wmw111
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 02:42:41 AM » |
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Mr Ngeow our dharma instructor said the real samsara is 'You!  |
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'Fear is the absolute confusion between you and your projections'
'You are very preoccupied with getting what you want, so you will fail to see what is'
~ Chogyam Trungpa ~
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spiritnoname
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2009, 12:55:20 AM » |
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I think samsara is the movement of consciousness, one time I was in a lot of pain, I'm not completely sure why, thoughts were painful, when I sensed things I could feel the movement and it was painful. It was like being dragged around by your legs and banging into furniture and down stairs, you just want to stop and stay still.
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