Questions about Refuge...again

[pummy369]

I've been thinking about refuge a little.  I know that there are the 12 Refuge Vows but I also have come across the reference to the 5 precepts which should also be taken during refuge.  Is this true? 

Also, on the refuge vows - the one about not forsaking the 3 Jewels even in the face of death...what does "foresaking" really mean in this vow?  Does it mean saying  - "Oh I don't believe in the 3 jewels anymore" ?  Does it mean that if someone asks what "religion" I am, if I don't answer with "Buddhist" then I am forsaking?  I don't like what the topic of religion does to be honest as I feel it divides and so I tend to identify with all religions - in thinking that the essence of them must surely be the same and then this can bring people together more, but I also can't deny that I prostrate to Buddhas, Bodhissattvas and Gurus and it is with them that I find my spiritual connection, nourishment and complete unsurpassed inspriation.  I just don't advertise the fact.  (I love HIS HOLINESS'S saying "My religion is kindness").   So, yeah - what does this "not foresaking" vow require of me...

Also, the one about not going for refuge to other Gods.  I still love Jesus and the stories of Jesus and I had a strong drawing to him when I was young...and even not so young but I just never found my palce within the church.  So I have that connection still and a great admiration and love for this divine being - allbeit on my own terms that doesn't really fit with any particular Christian tradition.  Can I still have this and take refuge?

I'm not trying to make up my own religion here, but I just never seem to fit into a box - there is always an arm hanging out or at least my big toe poking through a hole in the bottom while I hold breath to try and squeeze myself in.  Oh how I long to just say what I really feel but religion can be so - uptight.

Also, this not associating with people who are not on the path...well there goes my family and many of my friends.  This cannot be...

Also, Samaya vows.  In Gurus for Hire - Rinpoche talks about keeping clean, pure samaya vows with your Lama.  If I take refuge, do I have samaya vows to keep pure or do samaya vows only come with higher initiation?

So many questions today - it's because me and the cats are listening to Rinpoche today.  Mind starts getting inquisitive.

[dabeisyin]

I took refuge under 2 traditions Chinese mahayana and Kagyu tibetan Buddhism.
At first I just took refuge because I had only been with the center a month or so and they said I should wait.  But then someone scolded me for taking refuge without precepts, so I took refuge and precepts a month later.  Then i was with friends in Illinois and I went to a teaching with them in Chicago and took refuge there.  But was so not educated about that tradition.  I just loved the really old monk giving it.
I like him a lot, i like old people.
So in the second time they didn't say all the rules about not taking refuge in external teachings, etc. 
But I know that in my personal practice that faith is really important.  Because I practice pure land buddhism and faith is a foundation of that dharma method.
I appreciate other religions, but I feel like it is really important to be true to my faith and not embrace another religion and follow it as my main method of practice, because I feel like I would lose what I have gained in practice if I gave up my faith and embraced another one.
But this is just how I feel about things.  I jsut felt very threatened when my mother tried to force me to renounce Buddhism and embrace christianity.  Because my faith has given me so much, and I really appreciate everything I have learned and the people who took the time to teach me.  And I could never turn my back on them now. 
That is also a big part of my major attachment to the dharma center i attended before.  Even though I had a lot of emotional pain, and even physical pain, I could never forget the dharma they gave me or what i learned there about things, because it's really important to be grateful for that.
Sorry if I am not too clear... it's getting late.

[John]

this is how I understand it: Buddhism is a religion/philosophy/way of life that offers us a method to stop suffering. To `forsake` the 3 jewels would mean to forsake the method.

About the going to refuge to other gods, this  what I found:
http://www.tharpa.com/us/graphics/en-US/wow/sad-wow-rv.jpg
Now the question is did Jesus contradict Buddha`s view ? you be the judge of that

``Also, this not associating with people who are not on the path``
I don`t see this vow in the link above . Maybe you read another version of the vows.

[pummy369]

A quote I found from Chogyam Trungpa about refuge that I thought was cool.

The discipline of taking refuge in the buddha, the dharma and the sangha is something more than a doctrinal or ritual thing: you are being physically infected with commitment to the buddhadharma; Buddhism is transmitted into your system. At that particular point, the energy, the power, and the blessing of basic sanity that has existed in the lineage for twenty-five hundred years, in an unbroken tradition and discipline from the time of Buddha, enters your system, and you finally become a full-fledged follower of buddhadharma. You are a living future buddha at that point.


Will anything really feel or be any different after I take refuge?  I wonder....

Still thinking about it obviously.  Everyone seems to make such a fuss of it.   I wanted to attend a  Ganden Lygyama teaching at my centre and I wasn't allowed cos I don't have refuge.  I respect and understand...begrudgingly.   I don't know if I get it all really.  I sorta feel like I have it in my heart but I'm supposed to have a whole formal thing take place.  I guess I think that if it has to be a formal thing, well it must be a big deal and if it is a big deal, maybe I need a clear sign that now is the time.  It's like I am expecting this big voice to come booming out of the sky "Now is the time.  You are ready!  Do it now!" 

I also think that once I take refuge, I'm definately a Buddhist and I have to be better than I am now - which is scary.  Then also, when my mum asks me, I will have to tell her the truth.  Deep down inside that may be a little disappointing for her but that's only because of her own strict religious upbringing, which she did not continue with me.  I found Jesus anyway but I also found alot of other enlightened beings.  Hee!  Hee!  Buddhism is fine by her but only as it is something that I sort of "play with" and it seems to make me happy.  She knows I love this Dalai Lama and she thinks he's pretty special too and is thinking of coming to see him with me.  She was even willing to come and receive a blessing from a visiting Lama recently, at my request and visit Kechara House for me when she is in KL soon.   She's pretty open minded really but she will always maintain her faith.  I still don't know how she will take the whole "Mum I'm a Buddhist now" conversation.  Everyone hates the thought of making their mum upset or worried.  I think she's a big part of the reason I have hesitated for so long.

I also from time to time have this romantic notion of taking refuge in India or with the Lama that first really led me here.  Literally right here.  Cos it was him that made me go "I want to be like that person or have some connection to what ever it is he is connected to and in that way - be connected to him.  I want to find out about this 'Buddhism" that makes someone that beautiful".  And then in my search - Hello!  But I realise it really is just a romantic notion and is not what taking refuge is really about is it.  I considered that I could offer these things up to the Buddhas, my fears, my hesitation, my silly romantic notions.  Because it is possible that until I take this formal refuge, maybe I can't be of greatest help to suffering beings as I would like to.  You know - that's my great plan in life that and all that I have to do in the process to work with my mind so that I can actually be of help to beings worse off than me - temporarily and ultimately.  So I could let go of all those things and that could be my offering to the Buddha's.  Tsem Tulku said you could offer up things like that - your negetive things.  So, I'm wondering about that and if it would mean I could actually be doing something to help suffering beings - just by that one act.  Like right now help suffering beings - as in they could have the merit to meet the Dharma from my doing that.  That's the thought I had tonight.  It's my way out of being unsure and hesitant.  I can make an offering out of it.  It makes sense to me and gets me excited but to you, it's maybe just the ramblings of a crazy women with far too many cats.

It's funny cos I am sure of this path.  Definately I found the right one.  No doubt about it.  I don't ever want to be off this path, until I reach it's end but moving forward for me right now is proving tricky.   I am either a big booming voice away from just doing it or I will get there on the strength of this notion that I can somehow make an offering of the things that are holding me back and at the same time, receive the "infection" of the Buddhadharma.  Have you ever heard an infection sound so wonderful?

[pummy369]

Last night, after I made the decision that yes it is time for me to just do it because (to coin another famous phrase) - if not now, when?  Well last night I dreamed that I was at a teaching of HIS HOLINESS.  We had a special table right up the very front of this restaurant and we could even see all of the divine features on his beautiful, golden face, prefectly.  He was preparing for an initiation it seemed.  You know like when you get there early in the morning and he is quielty sitting on the ground level, doing all the mudras and offerings and prayers before an initiation and you think to yourself  'oh, we're in heaven now.  This is what goes on in heaven for sure.  When (if) I get there, this is what I will see - HIS HOLINESS preparing for an initiation.'  Anyway, there's nothing in the world that comes even close to that in my opinion, so that was going on in my dream.  It was all going really well and at some stage he started giving a talk and he looked over at me, sitting there with my husband and (for some strange reason) all of our cats.  He said that we had to take them home because the cats weren't allowed in the restaurant.  So there's  my husband and I scooping up all of these cats and racing them home so that we could come back.

It was strange really but I sort of take it as a good sign for the decision I made.  I just have to make sure I don't bring my cats.

[pummy369]

Well, I got myself infected today.

It went well but I don't feel any different.  It wasn't this great moving experience that I had conjured in my mind and that so many people speak of.  I don't know why.  I'm a bit upset about it - which is confusing.  The only thing I can put it down to is that I have for a while felt that I have refuge in my heart.  I have had those moments when I feel like my whole heart is in my refuge.  I think it happened the most when I first took refuge from my heart and in my own private space and way.  It was very moving and I felt more connected from that point on.  So for me, I just don't really get all the fuss.  I have these commitments now, so that is the new thing.  I also have the potential to take other vows - which I'm not ready for at this moment but the prospect is exciting.   I didn't have any profound sort of feeling that I expect should go hand in hand with what is supposed to be one of the most important moments and decisions in my life.  Makes me wonder if I just didn't do it right or I didn't want it enough. 

Anyway, it has to be good on some level.  I am hoping that the importance of the decision I have made will become more apparant as time goes on.

[ysng101]

Is it wrong for a buddhist to be inspired by other religous figures ?   How can we not be inspired by Jesus Christ ?  He sacrificed himself atthe cross , taking upon himself all our sins .  Even in his dying breath asked god to forgive the people that had done this to him. How can we not be inspired when every core of his body oozes of love , compassion and kindness. ?

To be inspired is one thing,  but the next step is how do we go about getting nearer to that state of love , compassion and kindness ? Here's where we have to make that choice .  There are different paths to take ,  offered by different religions .  You seem to have choosen buddhism after carefull study and consideration .  Now the hard work begins .  Expect a lifetime of practice to break bad habits from your countless other lives .   Expect yourself to be more mindfull ,  to be able to see your own faults which can be ugly .  It may get depressing to see the amount of work we have to do.   One would be lying if one said it would be smooth sailling from now on.  You're in this for the long haul.  Like a marathon race,  just don't think of the finish line when you are half dead at mile 1 of the race. It'll crush your spirit.  Take it one step at a time, and I guarantee you , you will get there .   Along the way, we have forums like this for us to support each other.  And when we reply , it doesn't mean we are any better or any wiser than you.   We are hardly boddhisatva'sa or rinpoche's .  we all have our own devils to face.   We just own a different perspective because we are not emotionally tied your situation.   Hell,   we may even give bad advice once in a while.    Haha ..

[wmw111]

Yes you can be inspired by all religious figures or the guy next door if he practices kindness.

Compassion is blind to race , creed and faith.

[justahripz]

Compassion and kindness doesn't need to come from a spiritual person to be inspirational. Compassion, kindness and love is not something that is only related to a spiritual faith so to speak.

Yet having found a real practitioner of compassion and kindness and having checked them out for consistency then that we can have faith in compassion and kindness as something that is real.

[pasquale2k]

I believe every religion, be it buddhist, christian, Muslim or Hindu, all having the same aim and same message, that is COMPASSION & KINDNESS........

[Prajna1978]

Dear Pummy369,

I personally think that refuge is a big step, but it is not the external " I am a Buddhist now" thing. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche mentioned before that taking refuge is NOT about the ceremony or ritual of taking refuge.

Taking refuge is about from your heart, have faith in the 3 jewels - it doesn't mean we cannot admire poeple like Jesus, but we do not take refuge in the way that he is our saviour, as we know the 'saviour' is ourselves nly we can save ourselves from being reborn again and again. You can view Jesus as a Bodhisattva who have done a lot and sacrificed himself on the cross for the sake of others, why not? In fact, if you know Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, he ALWAYS talk about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and other great beings of other traditions, who have done great things for others and Rinpoche respect them very much and admire their qualities of service to others and their selflessness. That is what I think Buddhism is about, it's not about what religion that person is, but rather their action, whether it is Dharma - the right conduct.

From what I read,  if it is very difficult for you to take refuge formally/ officially and annouce to the whole world you are Buddhist, why not start practising Buddhism and don't be too bothered with the official status of "BUDDHIST" and that you cannot do this and that. Try to observe the vows without formally taking them first. Later, if you faith increase and you think you are ready, then you can take refuge with conviction.

[pummy369]

prajna1978 - good advice... but for me, I already did it, took it.  I decided the waiting till I'm ready thing was over-rated.  The 'ready' feeling just wasn't coming as I had hoped.  It is possible I always would have had trepidation but the reasons for my trepidation could not stand up to the benefits of taking refuge.  My friends were telling me I was ready already, my venerable seemed to think I was ready already and I really 'wanted' to be ready already.  So, I just took a big step and although it has been a bit scary for me on a mental level - the dust has settled.  Was I gonna go on for ever wishing I would be ready?  Now I can focus on more important things, like having a committment, training my mind and working with my horrible habituations.  I know this is the path I need to be on but I just had some of my own obstacles to getting on it properly. 

The whole being "Buddhist" thing is not something I want to focus on so much but I know it is a question people ask -usually people who aren't Buddhist funnily enough!  I have a different answer now.  Actually I want to invest my mental energy more on not being so lazy, angy, selfish, jealous, greedy - all the things that even taking refuge has not seemed to make any difference to.  So, it's business as usual! 

What taking refuge really means, is something that is going to develop within me.  Yes I took refuge formally, but I believe the real refuge is the one I take every day - twice a day now.  The depth of connection I make each time I take refuge - seems to be all up to me.  When I put no effort and it's just words, I don't feel much.  When I really think about the qualities of the Buddhas, some deeper connection takes place and aspiration arises. 

A marathon, a long journey...someone once said that I should get comfortable.  Good advice.

[greasypalm]

The first time I met Rinpoche, someone asked him why there are so many religions in this world.  Rinpoche's reply was by narrating on cooking brocoli (other Lama's akin to going to a buffet).  If brocoli is cooked one way only, then only some people will eat it but if cooked in may different ways, eg plain boiled or with curry or with oyster sauce etc... many more people will eat them. Similarly in a buffet, if the were only 1 type of food, not many people will go to the buffet.  The purpose of the food is to satify a hungry stomach - so it doesn't matter which type of food we consume. 

In a similar way, it doesn't matter which type of religion we follow.  But it is most important, we understand the teachings of the religions we follow.  I have many friends of different faiths, some of whom barely understands the basics of their teachings or where they do, have little commitment to it so have little progress.  All religions are valid (otherwise there are no great beings from their traditions - such as Mother Teresa, Jesus, Guru Nanak, Prophet Mohammad etc ).  Only the practitioners who have no understanding of their tenets, make them invalid.

It is good to have commitment (and aspirations) for these propels one to achieve what one sets out to achieve.  Like when we were younger, we aspire to get good grades, go to good colleges, get good jobs, etc... If we do not have aspirations or commitment to acheive, it will be pretty difficult to reach one's goals.

Buddhist refuge vows is like this.  Besides, they are based on not committing 10 unwholesome acts (something which is quite universally practised).  Not stealing, not killing, no sexual misconduct (ie unfaitfulness), no harsh words, no divisive talks, no gossiping, no lying, no ill-will, no covetousness and no intoxications.    We are just made more aware of it and hence avoid these actions.

The 3 Jewels, of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, are a constant reminder to our practice.  And vitally important, is one's Guru.  Without a proper Guru to guide and teach us, it is difficult to get the essence of the teachings (from books).  Patience is virtue.  You know you are ready in your very own heart.  (You only need to be confident enough to admit it). As one progresses in one's practice, one gains confidence and one will self motivate oneself.  Guru is there to guide and motivate too.  Always ask questons if one is unsure of something. Also try to answer own questions honestly.  Most times, we have the answers. 

As regards people around us, as our practice progresses, we must check our actions.  Have we transformed? Are we still angersome? Still have lots of attachment? Are we still as ignorant as before we  come into practice?  Basically, arewe a better person from whenwe started. That way, we can either be good ambassadors for our practice or we are not.  If not, then we cannot blame others when they criticise our faith.     

[greasypalm]

And besides, your samaya with your guru is actually your practice.  You don't have to be near your guru to have good samaya with your guru.  It is how you practice, how you transform, how you defeat our own egos, how you are able to let go, how you have developed loving compassion for all beings. That is what counts.
It is good to have understanding of the practice - this is progressive (for most of people).  Latch your self on to some senior member in the centre to who you can ask questions, any questions and don't be shy about the questions being silly.  For eg, why a particular buddha has so many arms, so many faces, naked, half naked.   How is it we can collect merit just by dedicating? by rejoicing? by confessing? etc...
Reading a lot also helps in understanding.  Sometimes I read and after I finish the book, I found I haven't retained anything.  But subsequently, when in conversation with senior members, and they explain something, I can recall what  read.  That is the power of reading.