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spiritnoname
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« on: July 04, 2009, 09:32:13 PM » |
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I thought this would be a great thing to debate, I just wish I could be on the other side of it.
I propose the most important thing in life is enjoyment, so you should take drugs, have sex, eat, watch movies, listen to music, and travel, as much and as often as you can, getting the most enjoyment possible being the priority of life.
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Lawrence Wong
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2009, 07:30:27 AM » |
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I agree with you that the most important thing in life is enjoyment. That is why I study dharma which shows me the path to help myself and others attain happiness and avoid suffering.
However, the activities you mentioned cannot bring you everlasting enjoyment, and for some of them suffering can follow very soon.
When a kind of enjoyment does not last forever, you will suffer the moment the enjoyment ends.
The impermanence of things is the potential to turn temporal enjoyment into temporal or long term suffering.
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spiritnoname
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 08:42:34 AM » |
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 You're right. My side of the debate could only win where people don't know the benefits of practice. :p
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Lawrence Wong
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2009, 09:24:10 AM » |
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Please try to continue by giving arguments to support your initial position.
If we end the debate practice on this topic at this point, are we sure we will be able to give beneficial (from the perspective of enlightenment) replies to those who support hedonism?
If you cannot give further arguments to counter my last message, I can take your position and let you see how well you can argue against hedonistic views, although you think the opposite must win.
Hope you can give me an opportunity to learn and to develop my mind, thank you.
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« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 09:28:23 AM by Lawrence Wong »
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spiritnoname
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 12:30:31 PM » |
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Okay, but I'm going to have to tell you that I'm pretending to be a hedonist without the experience or knowledge I do have so I'm not lying, just playing the part  Sitting around, reciting, not doing what you want to do is a waste of time and doesn't give you anything whatsoever. You only live for a little while and if you don't have fun now you loose your chance forever. Religious people just brainwash themselves into pretending they're happy and get walked over by others, wasting all their time because they don't have what it takes to get what they really want. People should just get high and laid all the time because nothing else gives you that much pleasure and that's all you really want anyways right? |
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Joey
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 06:00:30 PM » |
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I thought this would be a great thing to debate, I just wish I could be on the other side of it.
I propose the most important thing in life is enjoyment, so you should take drugs, have sex, eat, watch movies, listen to music, and travel, as much and as often as you can, getting the most enjoyment possible being the priority of life.
yes but what happens after the enjoyment? what is the result after the enjoyment ends? |
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If you propose to speak, always ask yourself, is it true, is it necessary, is it kind." ~Buddha
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ysng101
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 06:48:20 PM » |
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I've got your back SNN,
what if ......... temporary happiness is all we have ? has anyone gotten a glimpse or even tasted nirvana type of happiness ? how can we all be working towards a goal which no one is really clear of ? if this one life is all we have, I'd say let's make full use of it and have fun !
ps:- common people, sometimes u've got to play the bad guy.
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spiritnoname
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2009, 10:01:23 PM » |
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After enjoyment ends you go get more.
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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2009, 07:25:15 AM » |
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After enjoyment ends you go get more.
yep go get more and more but when is the enjoyment enough?  is there an end? |
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If you propose to speak, always ask yourself, is it true, is it necessary, is it kind." ~Buddha
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ysng101
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 08:26:38 AM » |
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but these temporary happiness is what I have known all along since birth...
i have not known any other type of happiness... is there anyone here who has experienced lasting happiness ?
would they care to enlighten us ? the temporary enjoyment that we experience isn't necessary all bad..
listening to music is enjoyment, having good company is enjoyment, watching the sunset is enjoyment.. so many other "good" temporary enjoyments which brings no harm to anything or anyone. aren't these enjoyments good enough ?
tq
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spiritnoname
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 10:26:15 AM » |
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yeah, there is an end, you die, but until then all there is is to get as much pleasure out of life as you can, and if you can't then that sucks, you wasted your life and you'll never get another chance
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ysng101
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2009, 08:59:58 PM » |
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sorry to have to change sides  If life is about these "pockets" of enjoyment , which are mostly sensory enjoyment, exp :- how long can u get pleasure out of looking at a beautifull painting or scenary ? u'll be bored after 1 hour ? how long can u get pleasure from getting your back rubbed and massaged ? u'll be blistered after 4 hours ? how much can u eat and drink ? u'll be full after an hour ? how much music can u listen to ? your ears will ache after 5 hours ? since these sensory enjoyments are temporary, you'll be forever lusting and chasing after these pockets of enjoyment. Spiritual enjoyment however is more lasting , comming from correct pratice, the serenity , peace and compassion that comes from living these values brings lasting 24/7 happiness. As evidence comming from rinpoche ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hm8iQsEpuo&feature=channel_page) ,you may compare an elderly person who has lived his life chasing after these pockets of sensory enjoyments with a high lama who has practice and lived the altruistic and compassionate life . One of them , u will be able to see their peace and happiness , and if u are lucky to be standing near, feel their peace and happiness. and the other, will die with a mind that is still full of questions, doubt and unsatisfied lust ( sorry for sounding so cruel ) |
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Joey
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2009, 03:03:13 AM » |
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yeah, there is an end, you die, but until then all there is is to get as much pleasure out of life as you can, and if you can't then that sucks, you wasted your life and you'll never get another chance
there is still chance the next life, and the next life and the next...how much is enough? |
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If you propose to speak, always ask yourself, is it true, is it necessary, is it kind." ~Buddha
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Lawrence Wong
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2009, 05:00:34 AM » |
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Okay, but I'm going to have to tell you that I'm pretending to be a hedonist without the experience or knowledge I do have so I'm not lying, just playing the part Thank you very much. Sitting around, reciting, not doing what you want to do is a waste of time and doesn't give you anything whatsoever.
You only live for a little while and if you don't have fun now you loose your chance forever.
To you a hedonist, doing recitation and meditation is regarded as a waste of time. But to many practitioners, they hope they have more time for them to do these so that they can well transform their disturbed mind and better prepare for their deaths. You are wrong to say that these activities do not give us anything. For example, doing meditation gives us a more concentrated mind and healthier body. You cannot get or experience these benefits because you have not even tried or you have not made an effort to do it. You only live for a little while and if you don't have fun now you loose your chance forever.
Since we only live for a little while, we should not loose our chance to develop ourselves to be free of suffering and have ultimate happiness. Many enlightened beings show us this is feasible. How? By studying the Buddha's teachings and put it into practice. It is foolish not to pursue this good result but to pursue some pleasures whose "life" is even shorter than ours. Religious people just brainwash themselves into pretending they're happy and get walked over by others, wasting all their time because they don't have what it takes to get what they really want.
Who for example? Do you really think that those many monks who for almost their whole life renounce lots of worldly pleasures and material objects pretend to be happy? Try to be honest. The dharma has revealed the paths to attain enlightenment. The Buddha told us we no matter how good or bad all possess the qualities to supreme enlightenment. People should just get high and laid all the time because nothing else gives you that much pleasure and that's all you really want anyways right?
The existence of practioners shows you are wrong. They do not need meat and sex to get much pleasure and they realize that those temporal exceitments are exactly what they really do not want. |
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Lawrence Wong
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2009, 05:22:29 AM » |
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sorry to have to change sides If life is about these "pockets" of enjoyment , which are mostly sensory enjoyment, exp :- how long can u get pleasure out of looking at a beautifull painting or scenary ? u'll be bored after 1 hour ? how long can u get pleasure from getting your back rubbed and massaged ? u'll be blistered after 4 hours ? how much can u eat and drink ? u'll be full after an hour ? how much music can u listen to ? your ears will ache after 5 hours ? since these sensory enjoyments are temporary, you'll be forever lusting and chasing after these pockets of enjoyment. Spiritual enjoyment however is more lasting , comming from correct pratice, the serenity , peace and compassion that comes from living these values brings lasting 24/7 happiness. As evidence comming from rinpoche ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hm8iQsEpuo&feature=channel_page) ,you may compare an elderly person who has lived his life chasing after these pockets of sensory enjoyments with a high lama who has practice and lived the altruistic and compassionate life . One of them , u will be able to see their peace and happiness , and if u are lucky to be standing near, feel their peace and happiness. and the other, will die with a mind that is still full of questions, doubt and unsatisfied lust ( sorry for sounding so cruel ) And, for example, as one gets older, the less energy and resources he will have to chase the sensory enjoyment and then unsatisfaction and suffering will come. |
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