Mahayanist are busy bodies

[wmw111]

Are people with Mahayana motivation always poking their noses into other people's business , they are not content with their own business ( byron Katie ) hence they need to get involved in other people's business .

what do you think?

[Crazywisdom]

I don't know!  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Why do you choose to see them as busy bodies? What aspect of 'you' is bothered by their noseyness?

cw

[wmw111]

I'm not bothered by it, I consider myself a Mahayanist.
The fact that we care about people's welfare means we don't just stay in our own business , we do try to get involved in other people's business , in the hope that it benefits them : ) , with skill of course .

Which is why busy bodies came about

[spiritnoname]

 Some people trim plants, other people rip off their leaves while walking past. Similar action, but in terms of ethics and skillfullness they're not comparable.

[Joey]

the whole thing about the Mahayana path is that the customers always come first. and by customers, i mean every other being other than you. so basically being mahayana means minding others business fulltime.

whats wrong with that? it's a very rewarding  job

[stevet]

The key feature of Mahayana is bodhicitta, working for full enlightenment for the sake of all beings.  So you are still working at your own enlightenment (like with Theravada), except the motivation is different, and as a result "you" benefit more as well as other beings.  It attacks ego directly, develops generosity, makes your mind quick and sharp.  So, it is different than just running around trying to ease people's suffering, that will happen while perfecting generosity anyway, but basically the focus is on "your own" enlightenment for the sake of others.

Within the Mahayana vehicle there is (1) Vajrayana, and the (2) Perfection Vehicle; so Vajrayana is also Mahayana as well as Gelug and Tsongkhapa's teachings.  So basically "we are all Mahayana" here, or most are.

[Joey]

The key feature of Mahayana is bodhicitta, working for full enlightenment for the sake of all beings.  So you are still working at your own enlightenment (like with Theravada), except the motivation is different, and as a result "you" benefit more as well as other beings.  It attacks ego directly, develops generosity, makes your mind quick and sharp.  So, it is different than just running around trying to ease people's suffering, that will happen while perfecting generosity anyway, but basically the focus is on "your own" enlightenment for the sake of others.

Within the Mahayana vehicle there is (1) Vajrayana, and the (2) Perfection Vehicle; so Vajrayana is also Mahayana as well as Gelug and Tsongkhapa's teachings.  So basically "we are all Mahayana" here, or most are.

in the Wheel of Sharp Weapons, it is said that if you labour for yourself in any way, suffering will only follow and if you labour for others completely, there will be no suffering. This phrase shows us that as Mahayanists there should not be an underlying thought of benefiting ourselves by helping others. It limits our ability to help because if a certain being demands our help all the way, we will hold back thinking "what is there for me if i help him/her like this?" or even worse, we help others for self gratification, which increases ego and once it is full we refuse to help any further. I have seen and experienced this myself.

The first phrase that we always recite before any Puja session is to attain enlightenment for the sake of others, so that they will suffer less. So what you posted contradicts completely Mahayana....

[stevet]

The key feature of Mahayana is bodhicitta, working for full enlightenment for the sake of all beings.  So you are still working at your own enlightenment (like with Theravada), except the motivation is different, and as a result "you" benefit more as well as other beings.  It attacks ego directly, develops generosity, makes your mind quick and sharp.  So, it is different than just running around trying to ease people's suffering, that will happen while perfecting generosity anyway, but basically the focus is on "your own" enlightenment for the sake of others.

Within the Mahayana vehicle there is (1) Vajrayana, and the (2) Perfection Vehicle; so Vajrayana is also Mahayana as well as Gelug and Tsongkhapa's teachings.  So basically "we are all Mahayana" here, or most are.

in the Wheel of Sharp Weapons, it is said that if you labour for yourself in any way, suffering will only follow and if you labour for others completely, there will be no suffering. This phrase shows us that as Mahayanists there should not be an underlying thought of benefiting ourselves by helping others. It limits our ability to help because if a certain being demands our help all the way, we will hold back thinking "what is there for me if i help him/her like this?" or even worse, we help others for self gratification, which increases ego and once it is full we refuse to help any further. I have seen and experienced this myself.

The first phrase that we always recite before any Puja session is to attain enlightenment for the sake of others, so that they will suffer less. So what you posted contradicts completely Mahayana....

I was just reading the Wheel of Sharp Weapons a few minutes ago, something I've done daily recently.

So what explanation would you give to someone who doesn't yet have/practice bodhicitta?  HH the Dalia Lama described it in that exact same way, and it's one thing that led me to becoming Buddhist.  Concern for others = concern for your self.  If someone is self-concerned then, by definition, the only way to make bodhicitta appeal to them is to use logic to prove it benefits their self.  Very simple.

It does not contradict Mahayana, it merely creates friction in a mind that is stuck in narrow ways.

[Joey]

The key feature of Mahayana is bodhicitta, working for full enlightenment for the sake of all beings.  So you are still working at your own enlightenment (like with Theravada), except the motivation is different, and as a result "you" benefit more as well as other beings.  It attacks ego directly, develops generosity, makes your mind quick and sharp.  So, it is different than just running around trying to ease people's suffering, that will happen while perfecting generosity anyway, but basically the focus is on "your own" enlightenment for the sake of others.

Within the Mahayana vehicle there is (1) Vajrayana, and the (2) Perfection Vehicle; so Vajrayana is also Mahayana as well as Gelug and Tsongkhapa's teachings.  So basically "we are all Mahayana" here, or most are.

in the Wheel of Sharp Weapons, it is said that if you labour for yourself in any way, suffering will only follow and if you labour for others completely, there will be no suffering. This phrase shows us that as Mahayanists there should not be an underlying thought of benefiting ourselves by helping others. It limits our ability to help because if a certain being demands our help all the way, we will hold back thinking "what is there for me if i help him/her like this?" or even worse, we help others for self gratification, which increases ego and once it is full we refuse to help any further. I have seen and experienced this myself.

The first phrase that we always recite before any Puja session is to attain enlightenment for the sake of others, so that they will suffer less. So what you posted contradicts completely Mahayana....

I was just reading the Wheel of Sharp Weapons a few minutes ago, something I've done daily recently.

So what explanation would you give to someone who doesn't yet have/practice bodhicitta?  HH the Dalia Lama described it in that exact same way, and it's one thing that led me to becoming Buddhist.  Concern for others = concern for your self.  If someone is self-concerned then, by definition, the only way to make bodhicitta appeal to them is to use logic to prove it benefits their self.  Very simple.

It does not contradict Mahayana, it merely creates friction in a mind that is stuck in narrow ways.

concern is concern, the difference is with the target, which can be either the self or others. The trick is how  to replace the self with others? Then again, some methods may not create desirable results in the long run and people do get stuck. I have seen cases like these happening and well, they just help others to help themselves; when others really need their help they were unable to deliver saying that its their limit.

If you dont have Bodhicitta yet, then dont pretend to have it towards people around you. And you could always start small, beginning with the people you love, and then attempt to extend this care and concern to other people. Other methods include reading and applying the ways on developing Bodhicitta from the Lamrim, or read Shantideva's Way of Life of a Bodhisattva to help prepare the mental groundwork for Bodhicitta to grow.

It is said before that the YabYum Yidams represent another aspect: that when you attain their state you can embrace all beings unconditionally as your lover.

And lastly, the best way to teach Bodhicitta is to embody it yourself. Rinpoche embodied Bodhicitta with his body, speech and mind, and through observation i understood what real Bodhicitta was. Wouldnt that be a better way to teach rather than playing mindgames with narrow minded people? If the Dalai Lama uses it, he most probably will be able to handle the effects, but i do not think both me and you are capable of doing so.

[stevet]

concern is concern, the difference is with the target, which can be either the self or others. The trick is how  to replace the self with others? Then again, some methods may not create desirable results in the long run and people do get stuck. I have seen cases like these happening and well, they just help others to help themselves; when others really need their help they were unable to deliver saying that its their limit.

If you dont have Bodhicitta yet, then dont pretend to have it towards people around you. And you could always start small, beginning with the people you love, and then attempt to extend this care and concern to other people. Other methods include reading and applying the ways on developing Bodhicitta from the Lamrim, or read Shantideva's Way of Life of a Bodhisattva to help prepare the mental groundwork for Bodhicitta to grow.

It is said before that the YabYum Yidams represent another aspect: that when you attain their state you can embrace all beings unconditionally as your lover.

And lastly, the best way to teach Bodhicitta is to embody it yourself. Rinpoche embodied Bodhicitta with his body, speech and mind, and through observation i understood what real Bodhicitta was. Wouldnt that be a better way to teach rather than playing mindgames with narrow minded people? If the Dalai Lama uses it, he most probably will be able to handle the effects, but i do not think both me and you are capable of doing so.

I have Bodhisattva vows and tantric vows, where giving up aspiring or actual Bodhicitta is an immediate root downfall, and would require retaking the vows at a proper ceremony.  It would also be breaking samaya.

If the basis of your argument is that a person still thinks about his/her self while aspiring/engaging in bodhicitta, then of course that's the case, because as long as we're not enlightened or unattained then thoughts of self will arise from imprints from infinite previous lives.  Therefore, most practitioners (including myself) don't claim to have 100% bodhicitta regarding naturally arising thoughts, and saying that they're flawed in that area really doesn't prove much.  Bodhicitta is the aim to become enlightened for the sake of other beings, so if we're not enlightened then that's what we practice and there will be flaws, and if we're already enlightened then bodhicitta isn't applicable because the result is already there.

HE TTR has practiced since age 9 and is a nirmanakaya body from his previous life.  His embodiment of bodhicitta is from those causes and strenuous practice/effort.  Therefore the way to achieve that is through similar effort, not through immediately trying to embody it, where in that case the causes aren't there, so as a result in that case one is pretending to embody bodhicitta but actually it's nothing.

The Lamrim teaches of 3 different capacities for practitioners:  the lesser capacity is to practice for one's self to ensure a good rebirth, the middle capacity is to attain enlightenment for one's self, the higher capacity is to become enlightened for all sentient beings.  If one starts off practicing for their self, at the lesser capacity, that is fine and expected.  That is how it works.  That is how HH the Dalai Lama reaches westerners, with the concepts discussed above.  Anyway, this is a thread on Mahayana, I was merely making some remarks, and with bodhicitta being the key factor of a Mahayana practitioner according to the Lamrim then it was a topic to bring up.  Now it has gone off topic.  I never claimed to be super compassionate, I was simply addressing relevant points.

Lastly I wasn't playing mind games, just indirectly remarking that you had an arrogant tone. : )

[Joey]

concern is concern, the difference is with the target, which can be either the self or others. The trick is how  to replace the self with others? Then again, some methods may not create desirable results in the long run and people do get stuck. I have seen cases like these happening and well, they just help others to help themselves; when others really need their help they were unable to deliver saying that its their limit.

If you dont have Bodhicitta yet, then dont pretend to have it towards people around you. And you could always start small, beginning with the people you love, and then attempt to extend this care and concern to other people. Other methods include reading and applying the ways on developing Bodhicitta from the Lamrim, or read Shantideva's Way of Life of a Bodhisattva to help prepare the mental groundwork for Bodhicitta to grow.

It is said before that the YabYum Yidams represent another aspect: that when you attain their state you can embrace all beings unconditionally as your lover.

And lastly, the best way to teach Bodhicitta is to embody it yourself. Rinpoche embodied Bodhicitta with his body, speech and mind, and through observation i understood what real Bodhicitta was. Wouldnt that be a better way to teach rather than playing mindgames with narrow minded people? If the Dalai Lama uses it, he most probably will be able to handle the effects, but i do not think both me and you are capable of doing so.

I have Bodhisattva vows and tantric vows, where giving up aspiring or actual Bodhicitta is an immediate root downfall, and would require retaking the vows at a proper ceremony.  It would also be breaking samaya.

If the basis of your argument is that a person still thinks about his/her self while aspiring/engaging in bodhicitta, then of course that's the case, because as long as we're not enlightened or unattained then thoughts of self will arise from imprints from infinite previous lives.  Therefore, most practitioners (including myself) don't claim to have 100% bodhicitta regarding naturally arising thoughts, and saying that they're flawed in that area really doesn't prove much.  Bodhicitta is the aim to become enlightened for the sake of other beings, so if we're not enlightened then that's what we practice and there will be flaws, and if we're already enlightened then bodhicitta isn't applicable because the result is already there.

HE TTR has practiced since age 9 and is a nirmanakaya body from his previous life.  His embodiment of bodhicitta is from those causes and strenuous practice/effort.  Therefore the way to achieve that is through similar effort, not through immediately trying to embody it, where in that case the causes aren't there, so as a result in that case one is pretending to embody bodhicitta but actually it's nothing.

The Lamrim teaches of 3 different capacities for practitioners:  the lesser capacity is to practice for one's self to ensure a good rebirth, the middle capacity is to attain enlightenment for one's self, the higher capacity is to become enlightened for all sentient beings.  If one starts off practicing for their self, at the lesser capacity, that is fine and expected.  That is how it works.  That is how HH the Dalai Lama reaches westerners, with the concepts discussed above.  Anyway, this is a thread on Mahayana, I was merely making some remarks, and with bodhicitta being the key factor of a Mahayana practitioner according to the Lamrim then it was a topic to bring up.  Now it has gone off topic.  I never claimed to be super compassionate, I was simply addressing relevant points.

Lastly I wasn't playing mind games, just indirectly remarking that you had an arrogant tone. : )

well since this was the Mahayana thread, i assumed that we were all Mahayanists. Pabongkha Rinpoche was very strict, even saying that divination and such was a waste of time and did not contributed to actual practice. So if you didint find him intimidating, why would you because i am just saying things from my point of view? I am not trying to challenge anyone, just discussing realistic ways of solving that problem. And i have absolutely had no intention of being arrogant, i was more concerned on pointing out certain things. If i am wrong feel free to correct me

[wmw111]

Realistically, yeah we all want to benefit others and develop the bodhi mind.

But if I practice for 10 years ,I'm not happier I won't carry on practice it at all right . one must get full when one eats rice .  The practice benefit oneself too , not in material way , we must get some happiness out of it, else the practice cannot be sustained. If one is happy , easier for one to make others happy also.

[Joey]

Realistically, yeah we all want to benefit others and develop the bodhi mind.

But if I practice for 10 years ,I'm not happier I won't carry on practice it at all right . one must get full when one eats rice .  The practice benefit oneself too , not in material way , we must get some happiness out of it, else the practice cannot be sustained. If one is happy , easier for one to make others happy also.

that is true in a way but then i feel that if we sincerely care for people, it may hurt a bit but not so much on the long run..

[greasypalm]

Realistically, yeah we all want to benefit others and develop the bodhi mind.

But if I practice for 10 years ,I'm not happier I won't carry on practice it at all right . one must get full when one eats rice .  The practice benefit oneself too , not in material way , we must get some happiness out of it, else the practice cannot be sustained. If one is happy , easier for one to make others happy also.

The whole idea is everybody wants to be happy (including yours truly) and thus with that in mind, we do what makes others happy first and in return, we become happy.  If our first concern is self, this may lead to grasping which will then lead to unhappiness.  So best to give first then take later.

[wmw111]

The whole idea is everybody wants to be happy (including yours truly) and thus with that in mind, we do what makes others happy first and in return, we become happy.  If our first concern is self, this may lead to grasping which will then lead to unhappiness.  So best to give first then take later.

Giving first , I dispute that somewhat , perhaps some can give first and some can give later. People who are more happier will be more likely to give first IMHO.

To push the idea a bit more, if all of us are interdependent there is no difference between yours and my happiness : ) . There is no separation between my happiness and yours .